In this episode, Creative Guts hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone are joined by Kyle Wood, the inventive art educator and creator behind the Who ARTed and Fun Facts Daily podcasts.
In this episode, Creative Guts hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone are joined by Kyle Wood, the inventive art educator and creator behind the Who ARTed and Fun Facts Daily podcasts.
Throughout our interview, Kyle shares his passion for demystifying art history, engaging students with creative media, and making art accessible and fun for all ages. The conversation spans his journey into podcasting as an educational tool, favorite materials and makers, and how he cultivates creativity for kids and teachers alike.
To learn more about Kyle, check out the links below:
Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord. Subscribe to our Substack newsletter at creativegutspod.substack.com.
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Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:00] BB: I'm Becky Barsi.
[0:00:01] JA: And I'm Joe Acone.
[0:00:03] BB & JA: And you're listening to Creative Guts.
[0:00:18] BB: Hey, Creative Guts fans. Just a quick note before we dive into today's episode. Creative Guts thrives because of your amazing support. If you love what we do, why not help keep that creativity flowing? Leave us a review, share the show with your friends, drop us a note on social media, or even pick up some merch.
[0:00:34] JA: Feeling extra generous? Donations make a huge difference and help us grow. Every little bit counts and helps us with everything from production costs to hosting creative opportunities like our recent Art Around the Room event. Whatever you're able to do to help, we appreciate you. Now, on to today's episode.
[0:00:51] BB: Today, we're chatting with Kyle Wood, who is the inventive art educator and creator behind the Who ARTed and Fun Facts Daily podcast.
[0:00:59] JA: Kyle shares his passion for demystifying art history, engaging students with creative media, and making art accessible and fun for all ages.
[0:01:06] BB: Now, let's boogie on over to this episode of Creative Guts with Kyle Wood.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:15] BB: Well, hello everybody. Welcome to a new episode of Creative Guts. And we are joined today by Kyle Wood. Kyle, thank you so much for taking the time and your Central time, Chicago Central time, to join us on the podcast today.
[0:01:33] TM: Thank you so much for having me. And I am so happy that we could connect. Because, as you say, Central time. Listeners, I'm just going to let everyone know, this is our second attempt to meet and record because I messed up the time change the first time.
[0:01:48] JA: No, Kyle. You're not supposed to let them in on that. Oh no.
[0:01:52] BB: Nobody needed to know.
[0:01:54] TM: I feel like I need to own up to my mistakes, you know? It's how I atone.
[0:02:00] BB: Fail forward, right?
[0:02:01] JA: That's right.
[0:02:02] BB: Well, for listeners that know nothing about you, can you just take a few moments to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are as a creative?
[0:02:10] TM: So, I always tell people, before I was an okay visual artist, I was a terrible musician. And that comes up because I do a lot now playing with audio because I don't have the space for all the visual stuff that I like to create. I'm a K5 art teacher. I studied at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Got my BFA and studied art education there.
Primary studio concentration was painting and drawing. But obviously, you do a little bit of everything. But I loved working in oils, but like now with two kids at home and a dog and all of that sort of stuff, it's like it's hard to find the studio space. But my major creative outlets right now are obviously my teaching practice, where I'm teaching visual arts and coming up with lessons, and creating with kids. But I also host some podcasts. I have Who ART ted, which, Becky, you've been nice enough to join me on.
I love getting to talk to people about their favorite artists and their favorite works and sharing stories of cool, influential pieces from art history. And because I just am a bit of a workaholic apparently, I also have the podcast Fun Facts Daily, which, as the name would suggest, is a daily podcast on fun facts, which I love. I love useless information.
[0:03:39] BB: And are those just completely random facts about anything, or is it art-related?
[0:03:44] TM: Every episode has a different central focus. I might do one on Frida Kahlo. I've done an episode on clay and ceramics. And basically, it's a tight 10 to 15 minutes where I just do like here are five fun facts, a word of the day, and then a little practical tip or something you can use related to that subject.
[0:04:07] BB: I love that. I'm not as familiar with that whole second podcast because I'm so deep in the weeds of Who ARTed. And then didn't you also had a spin-off, Art Smart? Is that right, too?
[0:04:18] TM: I did have Art Smart as well. I've had four podcasts at this point because my children also had a podcast.
[0:04:26] BB: Oh, yeah. I remember that.
[0:04:28] TM: My son, when he was in second grade, wanted to do a podcast. Actually, before that even. But I told him, "If you read and research enough to come up with topics for –" I think it was like 10 episodes or something. I'm like, "Okay, then we'll go through the work." And so in second grade, he came up with it, and he planned out all these different episodes. And we recorded together, and it was like super fun.
Actually, when that launched, Apple featured it in their Apple store. Right out of the gate, he had like a thousand listeners or something like that. It was ridiculous. I'm like, "I've been doing this for years, and Apple's never featured me." But he's a lot cuter than me, so I'll take it.
[0:05:17] BB: Did you guys record that early in the pandemic time?
[0:05:20] TM: Shortly after. I started dipping my toe into podcasting just before the pandemic hit. It actually is kind of a fluke. I started off thinking my librarian at school, and I wanted to teach kids to make podcasts. Because it's like we always want to experiment with new media, new techniques, and stuff like that. But you can't teach it till you tried it. I created Who ARTed just thinking like, "I'll do a couple episodes, and I'll have a little digital media library for my students."
And then about maybe 10 episodes into it, the pandemic hit. And then I got an email from a student who was like, "You know, it is so nice that while we're on lockdown –" because it was early days of the pandemic, she's like, "It's so nice that I can just get out a coloring book and listen to familiar voices. And I was like, "Well, I guess this is a thing I do now." And so that's actually why I kept going with it and actually upped it to two episodes a week.
[0:06:23] BB: That's a lot.
[0:06:25] TM: It's a bit.
[0:06:27] JA: You're doing that and then also the daily one, too.
[0:06:31] TM: Yeah. But the daily is easier because it's a tight format, where it's just like, "Okay, I just got to think of what's the topic, and then find five fun facts." And if you're researching fun facts, it's a paragraph on each. It's not that bad. I'm enjoying that because it's a little bit more open-ended, where I can do an episode on the Beach Boys. I can do an episode on anything that comes my way. And I'm still getting the kids into it a little bit, where on the first Friday of the month, I'll do a family fun facts Friday, where my kids will come on and we'll talk Phineas and Ferb for 10, 15 minutes, you know?
[0:07:11] BB: Oh, that's great.
[0:07:12] JA: Wow. How do you consolidate or reconcile doing the podcast work with your own personal art practice and then your education practice? How on earth do you balance all these things?
[0:07:25] BB: And being a parent?
[0:07:27] JA: Yeah. Also, that, too.
[0:07:29] TM: Okay. I didn't start podcasting until I had been teaching for at least 10 years, you know? I'm not going to pretend that I have it all down with teaching, but I've been doing a lot of stuff for a while. You mix things up, but it's not like the first and second year of teaching. So, that's a little bit easier for me to keep the momentum going in the classroom.
And then with the podcasts, like I said, it's easier to do something that's really structured where I know exactly what – I've got the outline already in my head. I just got to plug in details and do some research. And I'm a curious person. I really like to learn new stuff. I love knowing that Transylvania means the land beyond the trees. And it's like, "Oh, that's why that's the spooky setting." I like those moments of discovery.
And I'm the kind of person who asks questions. That's where my art process has always been about, you know? It's in different media. I'm asking different questions and considering different stuff. But I like picking apart language. I like learning about all of these different weird things from history. And honestly, the daily podcast, it started like a lot of art as kind of personal therapy in a way. I started that – well, I started planning it before, but I started launched the show at the end of April. It's not been a year yet on that. But I don't know if you've noticed, current events have not been great in the world.
[0:09:10] BB: Don't say.
[0:09:12] JA: Yeah, we caught that a little bit.
[0:09:14] TM: There's a lot of stress. And I needed to change my focus and reframe things just for my own personal sanity and well-being. Focus on just like good stuff, because there's always good stuff in the world. It's just like what are we taking the time to pay attention to? And so it's become just a deliberate practice of mine to the way some people will sketch and journal. I will wonder about how did people invent pickles? Where did that come from? Who thought – that cucumber still got some life in it. And then it's like this dates back to like Mesopotamia, you know?
And I like to do that kind of stuff. And it's made me a happier, healthier person to be channeling towards something good and constructive. And I put it out publicly because I hope there are some other people. And obviously, there are some other people because I'm not doing like huge numbers, but it's more than one.
[0:10:17] JA: Yeah. It's true. Right.
[0:10:19] BB: That's what we do it for. We're in the same boat sometimes, like, "Okay, who's listening? All right, we got that one person. We're going to keep going." And hopefully, it keeps on building.
[0:10:29] JA: Yeah. I love that you are using this as a way to sort of reframe and refocus around the positive things that are going on in the world, because it is so easy to just drift towards the negative, right? And that might filter into your practice and whatnot. So, it's nice that you're using your practice to literally build yourself up rather than maybe make things more tense and stressful, right?
[0:10:50] TM: Yeah. And also, I like the act of creation and the act of revision. And I know in some ways, revising stuff can be painful. At least painting and drawing, there's this tension of how is this revision going to work out? Am I going to ruin an otherwise beautiful work by trying to make it a little bit better? But what I love about the podcasting and audio is it's digital tools. And so I have that undo button. And so I can tweak things, I can experiment, I can see how it goes.
And it's so satisfying to see something take shape and to see it get better. I like to think it gets better. Otherwise, I've spent a lot of time for nothing. But I really like doing these things, learning like, "Oh, this is what this compressor does, and this is how I get my voice to sound more natural," or whatever it is." I just find a lot of satisfaction in iterative processes.
[0:11:51] BB: Yeah. Yeah.
[0:11:51] TM: And feeling like I'm getting a little bit better at this, and I'm learning this new technique. And that's where I really like the dig – I'm excited about digital tools now because it gives me the room to experiment without the fear of failure.
[0:12:08] JA: All this curiosity and like really embracing sort of failing forward and iterating and stuff. I'm trying to visualize you as like a student. Did you always have this philosophy? Were you asking questions a lot in the classroom, too?
[0:12:22] TM: I think I was a terrible student in some ways. If I'm reflecting honestly, I think in some ways I was insufferable to deal with.
[0:12:32] JA: Oh, man.
[0:12:33] TM: Yes, I would ask questions. And sometimes I would ask questions that were like really pointed and obscure, and it would be like almost like a gotcha-type thing. Fourth grade, we're learning about the Constitution, and I would go home and talk to my dad, who's a lawyer, and be like, "Oh, this is the question that, of course, the fourth-grade teacher doesn't know the answer to." You know?
[0:12:57] JA: Oh my gosh.
[0:12:58] TM: But the funny thing is like as an art student, I was terrible. I was really awful. I always will say art is not something that came easily to me. It's not my talent. And I think in some ways, that's worth owning up to, because I have skills in art, but it didn't come easily. What does come more natural to me is systems. I'm a systems guy. I'm an analytical guy. And so I have found systems that work for producing a reasonable drawing, or painting, or sculpture, whatever it is. I've got different schemas, and I know I can think about how to apply them, but I was never that guy who intuitively got art.
I still vividly remember my art teacher telling me that my drawing of hands looked freakish and disproportionate.
[0:13:51] JA: Oh my god.
[0:13:52] TM: And I also remember, because I was really skinny and underweight at the time. And so it was like I put my hand on the paper, and it's like, "No, I was freakish and disproportionate." But in a lot of ways, I was probably frustrating because I was that kid who was very interested and curious and could grasp a lot of stuff. But I was also just shambling through life.
I mean, I always tell this story. My second-grade teacher, poor, poor Sister Robert Claire, noticed fruit flies gathered around my desk. I mean, I was pig pen. Apparently, I was like making prison wine in the back of my desk because I left grapes back there so long they liquefied. And she dumped out my desk and cleaned everything. And my books smelled for the rest of the year. And I'm sure I didn't learn from that and continued to leave food to rot and whatever else was going on. I was that kid who was finishing the homework on the way in the door to class.
[0:15:00] BB: And look at you now. You're an upstanding member of society. You've got multiple podcasts.
[0:15:07] TM: I showed up to this Zoom on time after just one failed attempt.
[0:15:13] BB: I think it just goes to show that. Of course, all three of us being art educators, it could get so frustrating trying to – like, "Why can't you just do the homework?" Or, "Why can't you do the thing?" And realize like, "Okay, we were there, too." Right? We've all been there. And this is just part of life, this is part of the journey, it's part of the practice, that iterative process that is growth.
And fortunately, I think the creative arts, the visual arts audio media, all of these things help those kids to hopefully find an outlet for expression and to be able to dive into who they are and figure out their identity. And so it's exciting that you're able to do that in so many different media and working with students, and how helpful your content has – I'm sure it's been to your kids, but also across the world. I mean, the content that you produce specifically for Who ARTed, which is also the best punny name ever, you can so tell your dad, is it's really, really valuable. Can you talk to us a little bit about, maybe because of your multiple podcasts, maybe just about the Who ARTed podcast? And tell us a little bit about what your process is like for developing an episode. And where do you start, and how does it develop over time?
[0:16:29] TM: Okay. Who ARTed, the process is different. It's funny, I started off, I would talk to other teachers in my building because they were the only people who would talk to me. They were there, and they were willing to come in and stay after one day. And so I started off with this notion that like, "Okay, I have to be the expert on this." And you're giving up the time to be the second person in the conversation mainly as a favor to me. But people would say, "I don't have to know stuff, do I?" And so it took that format of like I'm teaching somebody about this and I'm capturing their reactions and their connections.
And then as the podcast grew, it shifted a little bit where like I'll get writers and publicists coming to me saying like, "Oh, there's this new book coming out. And do you want to read a copy? Do you want to talk to the author?" So then it's like it's been hard for me to, in some ways, make that shift from like I'm no longer the expert. I'm talking to this person to learn from this person. And there were definitely some growing pains in that, where, if I'm being honest, I feel like I was rude to some guests and would just bully the conversation out of habit because it was like, "This is the way I've done this podcast. I need to be the expert here." And it's like I'm talking to the expert. I got to let them have more word.
And so it's been a little bit of a process to figure out just how to manage those boundaries and recognize the different roles that I need to take for different episodes. And then, also, it started off as just like fun fact Fridays because I wanted to have more episodes and more content for, like I said, students who listened. And I wanted to have stuff that's short form and digestible for them, and stuff that's just fun and interesting. Like Georgia O'Keeffe went to Hawaii for 9 weeks to paint pineapples, and didn't paint a single pineapple. Or how she would drive into the desert and turned her Model A into a mobile studio to give herself some shade. It's just like here's some quirky things. And those were like 5 to 10 minutes.
But then I found people like 5 to 10 minutes because it's short, it's digestible, it's light. And so there, it's like, "Oh, I'm doing the monologue." So then I got to think like, "What's something interesting?" And honestly, sometimes it's just like letting my mind wander to find what would be something interesting? And so I've done sometimes where I've looked around and thought like, "Where do I wish there were art?" And I bet there is, because art is everywhere people go.
That's how I stumbled across art in space. It was first just like, "I wonder if anyone's ever sent something into space." And then it's like, "Oh, yeah, the Apollo astronauts installed a sculpture on the moon in 1971. And Jason deCaires Taylor puts sculptures on the bottom of the ocean. There's just all these interesting things. It's like it's not just in caves. It's everywhere humans could go. And I find that fascinating. It really speaks to just how this compulsion to create is something deeply ingrained in us as humans.
People always laugh at first when I say this, but I truly think art is the most important invention in human history. I mean, it is our capacity to envision a better world and share that vision with others. And it's how and why we got out of the trees. And I just think there's something really cool about telling these stories and recognizing that these people who are giants of art history, like Michelangelo painting the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel, it's like they were also real people. And Michelangelo apparently had horrible BO, even by the standards of the Renaissance.
[0:20:36] BB: Fun fact.
[0:20:38] TM: It's fun. I don't have to smell them. So I like to know that.
[0:20:44] BB: I think what you do is you create this accessibility for listeners, and it certainly must impact the way that the kids are connecting with the content. Just those little tidbits are so influential because sometimes they'll remember that more than anything. Of course, they could probably see van Gogh's Starry Night and know, "Oh, I've seen that before." But they all know that he cut his ear off. That fun fact, right?
And so, what are these little tiny things about these very important historic artists in our time that just get us thinking and just make us a little bit more curious about history? To that extent? How do you think this experience in podcasting has changed the way you've thought about teaching in general and just about art education?
[0:21:32] TM: Well, by having to do the research for so many different episodes, I've had to learn a lot of different things about a lot of different people. And that makes me a better professional. It's professional development that I don't get the PD credits for, which is a shame, because it's some of the best I've ever done.
[0:21:51] BB: Right.
[0:21:53] TM: But it's funny because my own personal students, for the most part, a lot of them are not even aware that I have a podcast. I don't play it in my classroom because it would just be so weird for me to play an audio recording of myself rambling about art. I bring it I bring the information into my classroom. My kids get the live version. I bring it into the discussions when I'm introducing an artist, and it's just like, "Hey, fun fact. Everybody knows van Gogh cut his ear off. But did he? It could have been Gauguin, because he's a monster."
I bring in these little tidbits, and they come up later in trivia games and stuff that I do, and it's fun. And you're right, those are the odd bits that people remember, probably better than any of the works, you know? And I think that's okay in a lot of ways. History, you don't need to know all the minutiae. Most people don't. Most people, they need to know the broad strokes. They need to understand the general principles behind stuff. Like why did the impressionists paint with these dabs of colors? Optical color theory and all that sort of stuff. But that's nice to know.
But then to also learn like, "Oh, the old Seinfeld joke about Monet being nearsighted or whatever." Yeah, he really did have vision problems. And when they removed his cataracts, he could see ultraviolet light. And so, then that's why everything has this bluish shift to it. And I think there's something really cool about knowing that stuff because it gives you something you can share at fashionable parties. But also, for the kids, I think that's what's impactful because that's where they get the human connection.
And I think it was Koons who said, at its core, art is about communication and connection with others. And I think there's truth in that. That's what I hope the kids get from it. That and Mr. Wood can ramble for days if you don't put a stop to it.
[0:24:05] JA: Oh man, you're totally putting me to shame with all of your references. I'm trying to remember the artist. There was a contemporary artist that said art is just pointing at things. Just like, 'Hey, look at this. Look at this thing." I'll find the name at some point. But maybe we can edit it back in.
[0:24:22] TM: Well, if it makes you feel any better. I'm stumped on that. I'm not good with names and quotes. I'm good with stories. I'm good with those quirky things. But yeah, I don't know that.
[0:24:35] JA: Yeah. It's how many things that can be explained by very relatable – even physical bodily things like your eyes failing, that people will infer that they're like something profound that's happening in painting, right? I think a similar thing happened to Turner, right? Where he was doing these really elaborate detailed nautical paintings, and then his eyes just started to fail more and more. And then his work got more and more interesting and abstract.
[0:25:02] TM: But that's the reality of the human experience. And I think it's important to understand that these works are from people who had flaws. And I think that makes it more accessible to kids. It makes it less intimidating to try to make a better painting when you know like, "Oh, my art teacher, who does this for a living, was terrible at it when he was a kid. Maybe there's hope for me."
And I like those humanizing elements instead of just like, "Look how great this painting is. Mondrian painted these squares and rectangles in the primary colors." And it blew people's minds for some reason. And now he's a great of art history. But my kids will always be like, "Yeah." And they hung one of them upside down for 75 years before anyone noticed."
[0:25:56] JA: It's nice being on a computer for a podcast because I can look up the answer to who referenced that. I guess the quote was Al Held. But then the conceptualist John Baldessari took it very literally and literally made paintings of his hand like pointing at different things.
[0:26:14] BB: He was the one with the dots. He just stuck dots on things. That was Baldessari, too, right? Yeah.
[0:26:21] JA: I think so. Yeah.
[0:26:22] BB: Have you done an episode on him yet?
[0:26:24] TM: No, but if you want to come on and talk about him, you're always welcome.
[0:26:29] BB: I'll do my research to save you the time.
[0:26:31] TM: That would be lovely.
[0:26:35] BB: Do you actually have a favorite episode or moment from one of your podcasts that stands out to you?
[0:26:41] TM: No, I usually can't listen to it after I've made it.
[0:26:46] JA: Oh. This is a new thing that I've had to get used to. I hear you. Because listening back to episodes, it's like, "Oh, boy. Let's see how this goes." And it's always usually better than I think it sounds of me specifically. Everyone else sounds great. I'm always concerned about how I sound. But yeah, listening back, it could be painful.
[0:27:02] TM: I think that's one of those things that we're always a little bit self-conscious. And it's really ironic that I do this. Because when I was a kid and in high school playing in bands and stuff like that, I was that kid who I would always be too intimidated to go up and actually say something on the mic. I always had the mic, but I would just play guitar and not do the backing vocal or whatever. Just would get that bit of stage fright and stuff like that.
And you think somebody who's made I don't know how many podcast episodes at this point, you'd think like, "Oh, that's a guy who loves the sound of his own voice." But it's like, "Nope. Can't stand it. Cannot stand it. Feel bad for all of you." I like the creative aspect. I like the learning I like sharing information. I like that I get to talk to people from all walks of life and different places. I never would have met you before, but I'm having this lovely conversation. It's a cool way to connect with people, but I can't stand listening to it after I've done it.
[0:28:04] JA: I can't help but do the thing that everyone says to me and tell you that I think you have a really great voice for podcasting. And I think you're very eloquent. I think you do a great job. I'm not just buttering you up. Literally, when you came on, I was like, "Oh, this guy sounds great."
[0:28:20] TM: I appreciate the kindness. I'm trying to be better at accepting kindness from others because I want to be in a world where people give compliments and kindness, but it's just one of those personal quirks. I can't stand hearing it. I think it's probably because we all experience our voice resonates in our own head differently than we hear it through the headphones and stuff like that. And that disconnect from what you're accustomed to is always a little bit jarring.
[0:28:51] JA: For sure. One of our questions we had for you specifically was, "If you could interview any artist, living or dead, who would it be and why?"
[0:28:58] TM: Mark Hoppus. Mark Hoppus or Billy Joe Armstrong. Neither one visual artists. But I absolutely love – they were such huge influences on me growing up.
[0:29:13] BB: Remind – for our younger audience out there. Yes.
[0:29:16] TM: For those who want to know, and for those who aren't old men. I was going to get there, just to be clear.
[0:29:23] BB: I know Billy Joe from Green Day, right?
[0:29:26] TM: Billy Joe Armstrong would be, yeah, from Green Day. And then Mark Hoppus would be the bassist and vocalist from Blink-182.
[0:29:35] BB: That's right.
[0:29:35] JA: Okay. Right on.
[0:29:37] TM: And both of them are interesting to me in a lot of ways. Both very talented. Both of them, their music and stuff just resonated with me before I got into visual arts. That was the creative outlet. As I've said, I loved playing guitar. And I was never very good at it, but I loved it and wished I were good at it. And even as I've gotten older, I've come to recognize the difference between people who are really good at what they do and people who just play around. You know what I'm saying?
You think of like in the punk genre, somebody like a Sid Vicious, he was just a punk playing music. Whereas like Mark Hoppus and Billy Joe Armstrong, they're musicians who play punk. They know the medium. They know the craft so well. And I would love to pick the brains of people who have seen so many trends come and go and who have known what they want to do. And they've evolved over time, and they've learned over time. That's probably who I would be most just personally interested in.
[0:30:50] JA: I wish so bad I could be like, "Well, speaking of which, joining the Zoom call now." And just like, "Boom," right up.
[0:30:58] TM: One day, one day I'll get big enough that I'll be able to – for a while, actually, I had the domain markhopp.us. Because just as a joke, when Blink-182 reunited, and I couldn't get tickets to the concert, I was like, I'm going to take Mark Hoppus' name and own the domain. And I put up a website that was just like I will give this domain to you if you will just come talk to me.
[0:31:30] BB: And did he ever reach out?
[0:31:32] TM: Of course not.
[0:31:33] JA: Boo. And I had a random question. Sorry, Becky. It is a little off book, but when you mentioned that you went to SAIC, right?
[SAIC] TM: Yeah.
[0:31:42] JA: Did you know or did you ever meet James Elkins?
[0:31:46] TM: No, I know the name. I tried to get in his class, but it was full. Yeah, I never never met him, but I've heard wonderful things. Like I said, I tried to get into his class.
[0:31:59] JA: Yeah.
[0:32:00] BB: Again, for the viewers and listeners out there who don't know, fill in the blank, Becky Barsi, because I'm a dumb dummy.
[0:32:09] JA: Yeah. No, no, no worries. Yeah. James Elkins, he's a educator, author, painter interested in art history and all kinds of things. He wrote a book that I read in grad school called What Painting Is, and talks about – basically almost translating the process of painting in alchemical terms, which was really interesting. But he wrote a book that I just started digging into, which is it's a pretty inflammatory title called Why Art Cannot Be Taught, which I'm almost like, "Is this going to put me out of a job if I read this?" Want to bail out?"
But one of the interesting things he says in the book is I think art can be taught, but only if teaching means transmitting enthusiasm, inspiration, technical information, career advice, or art world ways of talking. And I don't know if any of that resonates with you as a fellow educator, like this idea of can art be taught?
[0:33:02] TM: It is a hot-button issue. I feel like it's one of those things that comes up all the time. When you think about the long debate between tab and the traditional methods and stuff like that, centering the child as the artist. I have tried stuff in a lot of different veins. I personally do think it can be taught.
There are skills that go along with it with the creation aspect. And I mean not just the skills of like, "Okay, this is how I draw to create a sense of space. I use a vanishing point. And I use atmospheric perspective, and the different shades to create depth within the work." Those techniques can be taught. But also, the creative process, there are steps, and there are methods, and there are ways to become more comfortable with risk-taking. And there are strategies you can use. And I feel like a lot of surrealism is strong evidence of that. They had systems for creating these free associations within group dynamics. I'm talking about the exquisite corpse technique and stuff like that. But there are ways that you can teach a person to make connections and to do something more creative. And that's what art is all about. I like a good provocative title, but I would disagree with that sort of sentiment. And it's not just because I don't want to admit that I wasted my life's work, you know?
[0:34:38] JA: Right.
[0:34:38] BB: Well, Joe will read and report back, and maybe come and talk to your listeners about it.
[0:34:44] JA: Yeah, for sure. I'm going to dig in more, obviously. I'm only partway through. And I think it goes into a lot more depth. I think it's purposely inflammatory, right? But then there's so much more to be unpacked. So, I will report back.
[0:34:56] TM: That's kind of interesting though, because when you think about it, I feel like that's a strategy in and of itself, is to construct stuff to be inflammatory is to gain people's attention which is emphasizing a point. And I think of like – you can edit this if I'm wrong. But I feel like it's Festinger and Cacioppo who came up with the elaboration likelihood model, that like most of us go through peripheral routes to persuasion. Most of us just go along with like constancy. This is just the way things have been done, so we continue in that line. Or this is what my friends and associates are doing. And so I go along with that. And don't really consciously mull over whether our methods are actually the best methods or it's just what other people are doing and what has been done.
And so you need to create some sort of cognitive dissonance or some sort of challenge to provoke a person in order to get them to do the hard work of mentally engaging with it. And when you think about it, that is in literary form a clickbaity title. And in the gallery context, it's a solid gold toilet called America. You're doing something that is deliberately provoking people to get them to think and engage with ideas instead of just passively going along with what might be expected.
And again, that's a system you can break down and teach to people. Like, "Okay, I want to get people to think about this. And so as an artist, I need to be a little bit of a provocator," or whatever. It's thinking about what's the intended outcome, and then what's the route that you get there. And really, that's what art is all about. And if I can break that down, then I can teach that.
[0:36:48] JA: Yeah. It's back to systems, right? Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. You can break down a framework, present it to somebody, or present somebody with the process of engaging with the material and present them ways to do it. But then I think maybe one of the ideas that they're unpacking a little bit is like you present the framework, but then the art is that conscious engagement with the material. And taking those frameworks and then doing something new and fresh with it, I think it's tough to do that.
There are other contexts in education where it's like if I'm teaching mathematics and I'm telling you to do X, Y, and Z, you would stop at the point where you got the question right. but what we're essentially saying is you can get the question right. But also, I want to see you do something new with this math I'm teaching you. And sometimes I feel like that is the more challenging thing that I don't always find myself presenting my educational content in that context necessarily.
[0:37:45] BB: Well, we're limited in time, too, to really get into that. It takes so much more of just investment in time and connection with the students.
[0:37:57] TM: Okay. So here's the question that I have for you all, because I like to turn the tables on people. As we get into this, and we start applying these ideas to that classroom context, one of the core ideas that so many people talk about is the child is the artist, and we need to respect their artistic vision and their priorities. And I agree with that to a large extent. But do you think it's an unrealistic expectation and too much of a burden to put on kids to say you need to be an artist in pushing these boundaries?
Because for me, you're in school. You're learning how to be an artist. You're learning the skills and the techniques and the processes and ways to go about it. And to me, in some ways, when we say like, "Well, you're the artist," it's like that's a lot to put on a kid. That's a mature thing that you build towards. We don't go to the math student and say, "You're a mathematician. Come up with the theory of everything."
[0:39:05] BB: That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:39:07] JA: I was talking with an instructor about – we were trying to develop a framework around how to teach a certain topic, right? And I stumbled upon this complexity theory. I don't know if you've heard of this model of problems can be broken down or categorized widely into three different buckets, right? One, you have simple problems, complicated problems, and complex problems. And essentially, I barely fully understand this, so bear with me here and correct me if I'm wrong. But essentially, complicated problems are simple problems, but they're just many steps to get to the end. And complex problems are things where the parameters shift as you're working through them. They're very much these real-world issues that people are delving into and trying to unpack in real time now.
I also heard it framed as the difference between a simple problem would be like baking a cake. A complicated problem would be building a rocket ship. And a complex problem would be raising a child. The parameters are shifting and whatnot when you get to the complex mode. And we were thinking about that, where it's like, "What's fair as an instructor to like present to a kid what? What's age-appropriate, first of all?"
I go back to the space where, when I put the impetus to create art on the child, and I'm like, "You must make. You must create. Be inspired. Do all these things. Do something new." Many of them like buckle under the weight of that, right? And because it is a lot of pressure. It's like they're forcing them to basically confront these like real-world assessments of like, "Am I being an effective artist? Am I creating something new?" I don't know. You're making me think more about that idea of pressure, right? And what's appropriate given the context?
Because I don't think – well, the example I gave about the math teacher, "Show me something new within the discipline of math. Do something rulebreaking or disruptive." No math teacher in the world would ever expect – at least not in like the grade levels we teach would expect that of a kid, right?
[0:41:08] TM: Yeah and the complexity of problems is always interesting. I always heard it referred to as wicked problems, where it's like problems that are tangled together, and solving one creates pressure in others and stuff like that. But it's something you do have to tangle with. Because you're right, there are these different levels of problems. And I think of like what you talked about there is a little bit of like paradox of choice, where it can be liberating to have this freedom and permission structure to go out and do something different and transgressive or whatever. But it can also be intimidating.
And really, it boils down to, it's liberating if you have the tools in place and the abilities and the confidence in your abilities to be able to do something. But I think it's intimidating if you're unsure of your abilities. And I think in the classroom context, I like to create a permission structure and space for those kids who are ready for a creative twist to be able to do that. But I feel like my biggest job is to build the foundation for everybody and give the support to the kids who need it. So that's an optional added step, not an expected result from everybody across the board. It's okay to be okay. They're 10, you know?
[0:42:44] BB: I love that. I think this is a perfect note to transition into our rapid-fire questions. You left us on such a wonderful high note there, too, and just that inspirational note. Now –
[0:42:57] TM: And it's all downhill from here, because rapid-fire is not my thing.
[0:42:58] BB: It's all downhill. Rapid-fire.
[0:43:02] TM: Load of liberative process is my thing. Okay, let's go.
[0:43:06] BB: All right. What other artist has influenced you the most?
[0:43:11] TM: Visual artist, probably Vincent van Gogh.
[0:43:12] JA: What is your favorite color?
[0:43:14] TM: Blues. It's hard for me to pick specifically one, but I absolutely love the combination of Prussian and cerulean. It is such a gorgeous, visually satisfying combination for me.
[0:43:30] BB: I think blue is probably the most common – some range of blue is the most common response from our guests on the show. What is your favorite scent?
[0:43:38] TM: Oh, I don't know. I have like a terrible olfactory sense.
[0:43:43] BB: That's why you had the rotting grapes and didn't know about it.
[0:43:47] TM: I knew about it. I was just too embarrassed to do anything about it. I take that bag out of my desk, people are going to see it. I would probably say like pizza or something. I don't know.
[0:43:56] JA: Sound? Favorite sound?
[0:43:58] TM: I love the intro to Dammit by Blink-182. I love that sound of that guitar. I love the simplicity of it and the way it's just like playing – it's fun to play. It's fun to listen to. It still gets me every time.
[0:44:11] BB: Favorite texture or touch?
[0:44:14] TM: Oh, there's something very satisfying about like ripping a fistful of clay from a fresh brick. You first open the box, it's like still wet and squishy. Just not quite slip squishy, but soft enough to pull out a chunk. I like that.
[0:44:31] JA: What's the most inspiring location you've traveled to?
[0:44:35] TM: I absolutely love Seattle. I think Seattle is a gorgeous city. This Space Needle. From the time I was a kid, I loved Seattle. And every time I've been there, I love the Seattle Art Museum. It's a gorgeous space. I absolutely love that city. The nature surrounding it as well. Just 10 out of 10. Would recommend.
[0:44:58] BB: What's the last new thing you've learned? Probably for an episode of one of your podcasts.
[0:45:05] TM: Just the other day, I was reading about tardigrades, and just how fascinating it is that tardigrades – they put them out in the vacuum of space, and they came back, and females were able to reproduce after. It's just nuts, the extremes that tardigrades can survive. And the fact that these microscopic creatures are everywhere, it's amazing to me.
[0:45:30] JA: I love that. That's so specific. Learning about tardigrades.
[0:45:34] BB: I'm like, "What's a tardigrade?"
[0:45:36] JA: Oh, they're fun looking.
[0:45:38] TM: They're commonly referred to as water bears. They're these weird little eight-legged creatures that they're often found in – they eat like moss and lykan. And they're probably in your backyard. But they're like half a millimeter or something like that. They're just absolutely tiny. But they're like the most resilient creatures imaginable. They can survive up to temperatures of like 300 degrees or close to absolute zero. It's absolutely amazing. There are tardigrades on the moon.
[0:46:08] BB: Is there a podcast about that that we can listen to?
[0:46:12] TM: Yeah. Actually, I just released that episode this morning. If you search for Fun Facts Daily on your favorite podcast platform, you can find a Tardigrades episode on November 11th or 12th. I don't know. What day is it?
[0:46:28] BB: Today's the 12th. Tomorrow.
[0:46:29] TM: I've used up all my mental energy. Yeah.
[0:46:32] BB: Well, it'll be out by the time this episode airs. Check out Fun Fart – Fun Farts. Not Fun Farts Friday. Although, that could be a great podcast, too. Fun Facts Daily.
[0:46:44] TM: Fun Facts Daily. Yeah. I love that I got through so much of this hour with, I think, mostly speaking coherently, and I can't get the day right. What day is today?
[0:46:58] JA: That's okay. It's the rapid-fire format. It really frazzles people, you know? The last question we have, speaking of which, is if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your younger self?
[0:47:09] TM: Make time to be healthy in small and sustainable ways. 5 or 10 minutes to stretch every day. Save some money. Let it grow in the bank account or invest it, whatever. Eat healthy. A vegetable every once in a while won't kill you. In fact, it'll do the opposite. I am now of that age where it's like, "Oh, why did I let myself get out of the habit of running every day?" Because it just gets harder to get back into those habits. And if you just maintain a small, sustainable, healthy habit, it is the best thing for you. Those little choices compound over time.
[0:47:52] BB: Well, Kyle, thank you so much. The insight you've offered, the laughter. It's been wonderful to speak with you again, but for our audience to listen to you, your background, sharing about your podcast, and just about the art world in general, and really philosophies on life. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
[0:48:10] TM: Oh, thank you so much for having me on. And I am always appreciative of people who are willing to tolerate my presence. So, thank you very much.
[0:48:20] JA: Oh my god. It's been a real pleasure, man. And I apologize if we went too heavy on the art education theory. But you get three art educators in a Zoom call, we're going to go off a little bit, you know?
[0:48:30] BB: Yeah.
[0:48:30] TM: I love an excuse to nerd out on it. So, I welcome it. Thank you very much.
[0:48:35] BB, JS, & BB: Show us your creative guts.
[0:48:42] BB: Another huge thank you to Kyle Wood for joining us on Creative Guts. Joe, what did you think of Kyle?
[0:48:49] JA: He's awesome, man. He has so many – I love that you highlighted the tidbits. He's just peppering in all these really fascinating little facts around art history. And it's also just great to catch up with somebody who's just clearly so passionate and curious about art.
[0:49:06] BB: Yeah, I continue to hear similar themes throughout our interviews with guests, like failing forward, maintaining that curiosity, all of these things that he touched on, being comfortable with not always being perfect or not always being right. These are things that are just so consistent. Love that he pulls it back and is tying it into what he does in the content he presents to the world through his podcast, but also in his classrooms.
[0:49:33] JA: Definitely. Definitely. I love him talking about systems. I feel like I can relate to that a lot. I feel like he and I kind of have similar brains in that way. Just kind of breaking things down into like frameworks. And it's just nice to also see that sort of echoed as like a fellow art person who thinks that way, you know? I think you think that way sometimes, too, right?
[0:49:53] BB: Yeah.
[0:49:53] JA: Yeah. It was a real pleasure getting to know him.
[0:49:55] BB: Yeah. And hopefully, we'll be able to connect with him when we're out in Chicago for the National Art Educators Association Conference.
[0:50:03] JA: That'd be awesome.
[0:50:03] BB: Who knows, maybe we'd have impromptu podcast number two.
[0:50:07] JA: Let's go. All right. So, want to check out Kyle's podcast and resources? You can find those links and more in the episode description and on our website, creativegutspodcast.com.
[0:50:17] BB: You can catch us, Creative Guts podcast, hanging out on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord. Not on social media? No worries. Stay in the loop by joining our newsletter on Substack. Just head on over to our website, sign up, and get all the latest delivered right into your inbox.
[0:50:34] JA: This episode is sponsored in part by the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts. Thank you to our friends in Rochester for their support of the show.
[0:50:41] BB: Thanks so much for hanging out with us today on Creative Guts. Remember, your likes, shares, reviews, and donations fuel this creative journey. If you dig what you hear, help us spread the word or support the show. There are so many ways to get involved.
[0:50:54] JA: Big thanks to all our supporters. You're the heartbeat behind the mic. Tune in next week for another dose of creative guts.
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