Creative Guts

Chris Archer

Episode Summary

In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone sit down with artist and educator Chris Archer. With a studio practice encompassing functional pottery, sculptural forms, arrangements, and site-specific installations, Chris's work has been showcased nationally and internationally, earning multiple awards and inclusion in esteemed collections such as the San Angelo Museum of Fine Arts in Texas and Tokyo Geidai in Japan. Beyond his studio, Chris has dedicated over two decades to art education. Currently, he is an Assistant Professor at the Institute of Art and Design at New England College, where he teaches Ceramics, Public Art, and Foundational Design. Chris's commitment to the arts extends to leadership roles in organizations like the League of New Hampshire Craftsmen and the New Hampshire Creative Communities Network, where he advocates for the significance of craft and community engagement. The Experimenters, by Eva Diaz https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/E/bo18291671.html Anthony Bourdaine, No Reservations - Decoding Ferran https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkEUbfQMtK8 League of NH Craftsmen https://nhcrafts.org/ Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord. Check out Chris's work at www.chrisarcherartist.com, and on instagram at www.instagram.com/chrisarcherartist. If you love listening, consider making a donation to Creative Guts! Our budget is tiny, so donations of any size make a big difference. Learn more about us and make a tax deductible donation at www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!

Episode Notes

In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone sit down with artist and educator Chris Archer.

With a studio practice encompassing functional pottery, sculptural forms, arrangements, and site-specific installations, Chris's work has been showcased nationally and internationally, earning multiple awards and inclusion in esteemed collections such as the San Angelo Museum of Fine Arts in Texas and Tokyo Geidai in Japan. Beyond his studio, Chris has dedicated over two decades to art education. Currently, he is an Assistant Professor at the Institute of Art and Design at New England College, where he teaches Ceramics, Public Art, and Foundational Design. Chris's commitment to the arts extends to leadership roles in organizations like the League of New Hampshire Craftsmen and the New Hampshire Creative Communities Network, where he advocates for the significance of craft and community engagement.

In this episode, Chris mentions:

The Experimenters, by Eva Diaz

Anthony Bourdaine, No Reservations - Decoding Ferran 

League of NH Craftsmen

Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord.

Check out Chris's work at www.chrisarcherartist.com, and on instagram at www.instagram.com/chrisarcherartist.

If you love listening, consider making a donation to Creative Guts! Our budget is tiny, so donations of any size make a big difference. Learn more about us and make a tax deductible donation at www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com

Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!

Episode Transcription

EPISODE 219

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] BB: I'm Becky Barcy. 

[0:00:01] JA: And I'm Joe Acone. 

[0:00:02] BB & JA: And you're listening to Creative Guts. 

[0:00:18] JA: Hey friends, and thanks for tuning in to Creative Guts. On today's episode, we are speaking with Chris Archer, an artist, educator, and advocate based out of Southern New Hampshire. His studio practice encompasses functional pottery, sculptural forms, arrangements, and site-specific installations. 

[0:00:33] BB: Chris has also dedicated over two decades to art education. Currently, he is an assistant professor at the Institute of Art and Design at New England College. He is also committed to many leadership roles in organizations like the League of New Hampshire Craftsmen and New Hampshire Creative Communities Network, where he advocates for the significance of craft and community engagement. 

[0:00:53] JA: Let's jump right into this episode of Creative Guts with Chris Archer. 

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:01] JA: Welcome, Chris Archer. 

[0:01:02] CA: Thank you. 

[0:01:03] JA: How are you doing today? 

[0:01:04] CA: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. 

[0:01:06] JA: Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. 

[0:01:08] BB: It's great to meet you in person and to be able to have you on the podcast today. 

[0:01:10] CA: Likewise. Thank you. 

[0:01:10] BB: So thank you for coming down and visiting us. 

[0:01:13] CA: Thanks for having me. 

[0:01:14] JA: I feel like I should provide some context perhaps as to some of my connections to Chris here a little bit maybe. 

[0:01:18] BB: Yeah, you guys know each other, right? Yeah. 

[0:01:20] JA: Is that all right? 

[0:01:21] CA: Of course.

[0:01:22] JA: I know Chris through the time I spent at the New Hampshire Institute of Art, both in undergrad and in graduate school. We crossed paths briefly in my freshman year in the materials and processes class. And you would talk like a – what is it? Like a third of a trimester? We rotate through. 

[0:01:39] CA: Yeah, every five weeks. 

[0:01:41] JA: Every five weeks. We'd rotate through different mediums. And I think you were my first one with ceramics, and I absolutely adored the experience. I got to work on – I think it was the only one on the kick wheel at the time. Everyone else was opting for the electric wheels. And then we didn't work together at all because I was an illustration student. We didn't work together at all until grad school. 

[0:02:01] CA: That's right. 

[0:02:02] JA: And I think you were my first advisor, and we collaborated. Or you were a mentor to me during that program in a lot of ways. We got an opportunity to bring some folks on. I was like, "Oh, we got to bring Chris." 

[0:02:16] CA: That's nice. Thank you. 

[0:02:16] JA: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Now, I know you very well, but could you introduce yourself to the general public and talk a little bit about yourself as an artist and an educator, and kind of give them some insight into a little bit of – 

[0:02:29] BB: Who is Chris Archer? 

[0:02:30] JA: Yeah. Yeah. 

[0:02:30] CA: Oh, God. Well, thank you. Some people know me as an educator. I've been teaching in higher ed since 1998. I've been teaching in the community education field since 1993. I used to own a business in Portsmouth, a ceramic studio where I taught classes, made pots for wholesale and retail, and started exhibiting. Since 1998, I was at the New Hampshire Institute of Art, teaching in community education, undergraduate classes, and then also graduate when we developed a graduate school. 

Some people know me as a potter. I've been making pots since 1990. I was forced to take a class in college, luckily, and had some great teachers, and really got inspired, and that really helped me figure out a path going beyond art school. 

[0:03:22] BB: And where did you go to school? 

[0:03:23] CA: I ended up at Alfred School of Art and Design. 

[0:03:25] BB: Oh, yeah. Very big ceramics program there too, right? 

[0:03:27] CA: Yeah, which I had no idea of when I transferred there. I was actually a biology student for two years. I thought I wanted to be a cytogeneticist. And actually, I was at Colgate University and went one semester without doing art, without taking an art class. And I've been making art since I came into the world. And I just felt something was off, and I realized I wanted to be a high school art teacher at that time. 

And so I transferred to a school that, quite honestly, I didn't research. But it was close to where I was. And they had just gotten a grant for these three Takach presses, which are lithography presses. And I was really big into printmaking when I was in high school. That was really my field, my creative field, I thought. When I went to Alfred, I said, "Hello, please show me the presses." And they said, "No, you got to take a 3D class. How about ceramics?" And I'm like, "No, thank you." And so we went back and forth. 

And to this day, one of my dearest friends, Tyler Gulden, a potter up in Maine, I had already made friends with him. And he said, "Hey, you should really take a clay class. It's got fire. They do it well here." And so I did. And I was very lucky to have some amazing educators and mentors who really helped me find my creative voice. 

And after that, I moved to New Hampshire because of a classified ad in Ceramics Monthly. There was a pottery in Greenland, New Hampshire called Great Bay Pottery. I believe they still exist. They're certainly not in Greenland anymore. And I, on a whim, came up and did not get hired for my making pots ability. I actually got hired because I had some glazed chemistry knowledge because of school and I could manage the studio, which is what I did for a number of years before I became a piece-rate potter. And then I opened my own studio shortly after that. 

And today, I don't really call myself a potter. I make pots. I make functional objects, I make non-functional objects, sculptural objects, installations, arrangements. I kind of have this deal with the universe that I want to make what I want to make when I want to make it. And as self-serving as I know that sounds, I've also made a pack with the universe that I promise to be as critical as I can with the work that I make and only put work into the world that I think is valuable or worthwhile, worth your while. 

[0:05:55] BB: Yeah. 

[0:05:57] CA: And I must say, I also am very lucky that teaching is very much an extension of my artistic practice. Teaching is not a day job. Teaching is not a means to an end. I found when I was very young that I loved teaching, I'm challenged by teaching, and it really keeps me on my creative toes. I mean, there's a lot that teaching forces us to do or to pay attention to. But as a creative, it also keeps me energized. I surround myself in an environment of questioning. 

[0:06:32] BB: Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because we, being middle and high school art teachers too, there's so much creativity that goes into it. And it often will be not a time suck, but it sucks so much of your creative passion and creative energy out to be able to communicate this and inspire and get your students to create. How have you found time to balance both that teaching practice but also your own personal creative practice? 

[0:06:58] CA: Hmm. That's a good – well, I don't necessarily overly compartmentalize. Summers are not making time. I'm an associate professor at New England College. And as such, I have a full teaching load. But, also, part of my day is prepping for classes, which means reading different articles and doing things that are as much my creative practice as anything else. I will say that I'm getting a little bit older and I don't stay – I can't stay up as – well, I can stay up as late, but the mornings are more difficult, where even up through a few years ago, I might be in the studio until late at night. 

I also have structured wood fire. I fire kilns in different communities where we come together. There's maybe anywhere – I fire one kiln that's about 25 feet long with seven other people. I fire one down in Massachusetts that's maybe 80 feet long with about 35 people. And I've been doing this for 20 years or more. And so these are big events. There are deadline. There are other people involved. There's a certain level of responsibility on me to perform and to do that. And I like those deadlines. I think that helps push me along. I do that. And I will say I'm making all the time, sometimes in my studio, sometimes after class or something like that. 

[0:08:25] BB: That's great. It's a challenge to juggle all that, for sure. 

[0:08:28] JA: Yeah, huge. Yeah. When I was thinking about writing the intro and the episode description for you, I was hesitant to say potter or artist educator. Where can I find the words to just start to describe the scope of things that you're involved in? And it made me think a lot about some of the conversations we had in grad school where you were pretty critical when you would hear a student say something along the lines of trying to find their thing. And I was wondering if you could maybe unpack sort of where you developed the impulse to caution people against finding their thing. 

[0:09:09] CA: Yeah, I hope it didn't come across as that's necessarily bad. The thing that I, as an educator, push back on is when we work on default settings. 

[0:09:20] JA: Sure. 

[0:09:20] JA: And what I mean by that is – and I know exactly where that thing you're talking about came from. In 2006, I decided to go to grad school. I was 36 years old. I had a job teaching at New Hampshire Institute of Art as an undergraduate and community education faculty, but I really wanted grad school. And I knew that I wanted to be pushed. And to your question earlier, I was at a point where everything was – things were comfortable. And I really wanted to be creatively uncomfortable. 

And I was very curious about sculpture and I had no training for that. But I chose not to go to a ceramic program. I knew that I wanted to work more interdisciplinary. So I ended up going to Maine College of Art's interdisciplinary MFA program. And I remember the very first day going there, and we're all introducing ourselves. And it's, "I'm Jonathan, I'm a photographer. I'm Andrew, I'm a sculptor. I'm this. I'm Chris, I'm a potter." And they let us do that. And then they said, "What a disservice to yourself to identify yourself solely by what you do or what you make. We asked who are you." And I'm overdramatizing that. 

[0:10:36] BB: But that's a great and solid question to ask. 

[0:10:39] CA: Yeah. And it was a theme. And so I actually, for that two years, didn't work with clay except for my two projects. I worked with rice, both cooked and uncooked. I worked with pallets. I worked with all kinds of materials trying to really sort of navigate who I was creatively. And then what are the implications when I was a little bit more in tune with that, what are the implications with the material of clay and the techniques that I may or may not know? 

I think to your question, Joe, that's part of where that came from. It's not so much that having a thing is bad. Although I will say that I sometimes ponder what the implications are for young creatives in this world of branding. Being brought up in such an environment of branding, where there's an expectation to have a thing that is discernible. And everyone's different. But for me, curiosity is really a central part of why I like to make things or why I like to make. It's not even things. 

I think you were in a lecture that I gave where we were showing images on the screen in your MFA program and I said, "What you're seeing on there, to be honest with you, that's not my art necessarily." I don't want to call it residue because that seems dismissive, but this is the product of my art, which, no offense, y'all aren't invited to that. That's me in my studio, but I have things from that experience to share with the world. But that said, there are realistic challenges in marketing yourself when you decide, when you hold fast to that, hold steady in that way of thinking, that's a tough thing to market. 

[0:12:23] JA: Yeah. They know a little bit about what they're getting when they hire you to come to lecture or to showcase your work. Yeah. 

[0:12:30] CA: But I think of like Kiki Smith, right? What's the brand? I mean, the brand is a way of asking questions and investigating and being creative in those investigations. To me, that's a brand that sounds wonderful. Not, "Oh, you're the wood fire carving cup person." But that said, I mean, we're very lucky if we make objects that are appreciated beyond ourselves. That is a gift. 

[0:12:58] JA: Absolutely. And in this environment, we're working with young people, the concept of curiosity almost feels at times secondary to forcing an output of some kind. And I appreciate you saying that, referring to curiosity as being so essential, because I find in the classroom sometimes kids are very risk-averse. 

[0:13:19] CA: Yes. 

[0:13:20] JA: They want to make unless they know it's going to be good, which is, of course, not how the process works. And it's kind of scary. Yeah. 

[0:13:27] BB: It's so limiting. Yeah. And it is scary because we want those kids to take those risks and to experiment and to play without the risk of them thinking they're going to fail. But yet, our space is one of the safest places to fail. Like, "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." And just keep failing because you're going to learn more and become a better person for that both just as an individual in life and how you survive, but as a creative. And that's how you find your niche. 

And so I'm curious, when you decided to transfer, you knew you wanted to go into an art program. You were thinking you were going to be a printmaker, but ceramics ended up being kind of – did that end up being your major? Or was it just a BFA? 

[0:14:08] CA: I think I double majored, yeah. 

[0:14:11] BB: Did you ever do any kind of cross-pollination? Because you have many different approaches in your discipline? And so how have you picked and pulled or blended and weaved these elements together? 

[0:14:22] CA: Well, I'll share with you what happened in – something that happened in college that may shed some insight. I was printmaking. I had declared that as a major. I was not a ceramic major, but I was really heavily into what was happening there. And there was a day where I unloaded a kiln where we spray salt and soda ash in there. It's an atmospheric kiln. And the bottom of the pot was exactly resonated with me in a way that I wished my abstract images with my prints would. And they didn't. And I was contrived, and I was trying too hard. 

At that same time, somebody I happened to be hanging out with gave me a book, was a dancer, and she gave me a book that was like – it was the biography of Martha Graham. It was written by Agnes de Mille. And I was reading it mostly because my girlfriend told me to, gave me the book. But I read the book and I was really fascinated with the way that Martha Graham had described the relationship between the body, the space surrounding the body, the stage, and the audience, and the atmosphere that it created. 

And so I actually use some of the language. I mean, I don't know anything about dance. But I use some of the language that I was reading about as a way to kind of – I don't want to say translate, but for me to navigate what was important to me about being a printmaker or what I wanted from that and hoped for. I mean, I'm in love with the way that ink absorbs into cotton fiber paper. I mean, it's amazing. I love the smells of it. I love all of that. 

However, there was something in the surface, especially in these atmospheric-fired pots that really resonated with me as well, and the atmosphere of making. And I think a lot of it was immediate, and you could fail a lot. Meaning volume or multitude was a tool there. It was an important tool. And I think for me, it was a helpful tool. Yeah, it was weird. It was a very odd confluence of things that happened around that time. But believe it or not, reading that book about Martha Graham was a really big influence on the way that I looked at art making and became a ceramicist, which is odd. 

[0:16:45] JA: I'm curious about like what specifically – can you recall anything specific in there that kind of pulled you into that space? For reference, I'm thinking about that lecture you mentioned earlier, the you're not invited thing is really interesting to me because I think you may have shown. Was it Richard Long's A Line Made By Walking? 

[0:17:03] CA: Yeah. 

[0:17:04] JA: And you sent me down a whole lane of artists that I started to explore that I still use in my classes now to plug kids into a more – I don't know if this is the right term to use, like, performance art angle to art making. We talked a lot about also happenings, the situationists, Allan Kaprow. And I always frame now because I've been a teacher now for only – teaching high school kids for like five years now. But I try to tap into those spaces to get kids to access art in a different way sooner, because that was such a useful moment for me to like – I was very much mired in the world of painting, and illustration, and fantasy, science fiction illustration. And then I like a joke that I broke up with painting like halfway through grad school, which I feel like is typical. It's like you have like a little side step. 

[0:17:54] BB: Evolution. 

[0:17:55] JA: Yeah. And accessing new work was really attributed to the performance art angle of things. I'm curious, was that book also similar in that way for you as an aha moment? 

[0:18:05] CA: I mean, it's a long time ago. But thinking about it, probably, very probably. We're all educators, and hearing you talk about that makes me think about – earlier, we were talking about branding. And it's not branding is bad or finding your thing is bad. But part of education is risking to follow curiosities and paths that are unknown. I think about that a lot teaching now on a liberal arts campus. I work for New England College, and I teach courses, art courses that are part of a general education program. And I think what's really fascinating to me, and this does relate to the book, where that seemed outside of ceramics and seemed outside of printmaking. Well, ceramics 1, I had 10 nursing students this morning in a class. What we did on the wheel is outside the norm of what they're at a college to do – at an institution to learn. Or is it? 

[0:19:04] BB: Right. Yeah. 

[0:19:06] CA: And so, I'm really a proponent of people taking one foot out of the vernacular that they're most comfortable in and really stepping into a space that isn't overly familiar. And I think in doing that, you can really know more about yourself, hopefully for the better. 

[0:19:27] BB: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of students, and we see this of course in the high school and you'll see it on the upper or the collegiate level, but these kids who just don't think that, "Oh, I'm not good. I'm not good enough." Or, "I don't get art." It's like, "But have you tried?" Have you actually taken the time to just see what happens? Make a mess, break something, and see what you get. It's those moments where maybe it was like that with you with clay, right? You didn't think that would ever be your medium or one of your main materials to work with, but that aha moment that like, "Oh, I get it now. I like this." 

[0:20:05] CA: Right. 

[0:20:06] BB: It triggers something that gets you going. And I think that's one of our goals as educators is like, "What can we do to just incite that little bit of a curiosity to get those kids diving in and wanting to learn more?" 

[0:20:17] CA: Yeah. Embedded in what you're talking about also, for me, the way I'm thinking about it is also there's an assumption that a lot of people make about what art is. Dealing with Richard Long, that was the 2020s or 20 – late teens. It's not the '60s. It resonates differently to a student in a grad program than it did in the time that he was doing that work, though he's still actively working. 

And I think that resistance to try things because they want to do it perfect, the students want to do it perfectly, or a drawing goes bad. But I would question what's a bad drawing. I mean, we're not doing a good enough job collectively to really open up what a good drawing or a bad drawing is. 

I think of like – boy, I'm talking to middle school teachers. I think of that moment that so many students have where when they're young enough, we celebrate the freedom that they have, that so many young people have in expressing themselves with the material and investigating the material. I mean, when they're babies and they just drop stuff, we're cool with that, right? When they're scribbling, we're cool with that. But at some point, we're like, "We're all going to draw this tree." And then we tell them that's not good or that's not right. But we don't put it into context. 

If you want a realistic tree, then there are certain ways to go about that, like a photo realistic. If you want a tree with willowy leaves and to feel like that – I don't think we collectively teach with that level of context in a lot of public education or middle school, high school also. You guys have a tremendous amount of load and responsibility that I can't even imagine. I'm in awe of everybody who teaches like you guys to handle classes of 20-plus. Maybe it's different here. 

[0:22:17] BB: It's a little different here. We're pretty lucky. Yeah. But yeah, our colleagues in the public system, it's bonkers. 

[0:22:21] CA: Yeah. I mean, it's almost an impossible task to sort of – for many of us to treat our students with that level of attention. But I think it's all related, right? Like this idea of find your thing. Because I even see students – because I deal with so many non-art students these days, I see so many students that come in and it's like they already have the plan. And if the plan doesn't, there's no alternate. 

[0:22:49] BB: Yeah. 

[0:22:49] CA: And I'm like, "Wow, you are lucky enough to be in a wonderful liberal arts institution with so many classes that might reveal something to you that is not only of interest, but you might really connect with and pursue." I mean, when's the space for that? When's the time for that? 

[0:23:10] BB: Yeah. 

[0:23:11] JA: I don't know if it's being invited to the table, honestly, unless they're in an environment that prompts them to do that, you know? And I guess we're speaking to one of the major values of pursuing art in an educational context at all. And so much of – I feel like when people talk about art and things that are called art, we're talking about the skills side of things. 

And I know as a teacher, sometimes I've been leaning harder into the angle that you were talking about, where we set up the context of what is the relative sort of sandbox you want to play in? And then let's get you deeper into that sandbox. But sometimes in these classroom environments that I'm creating, I feel like I'm not teaching the skills, at least in the way that I was taught. And so that sometimes makes me feel like I'm not doing a good job as a teacher, because like what they're representing to me, you get a different thing for every kid, which is probably what would have happened either way, right? 

[0:24:17] CA: Yeah, that adage of learn the rules so that you can break them. I personally don't believe in that. I would just question that there are rules. There are choices, and there are consequences for all of our choices. I'd rather teach from that angle. But I also, like you, was brought up with learn the rules, be a virtuoso before you mess with the rules. I don't know. 

[0:24:43] JA: It's a moving target. I feel like building towards skills. I want to do more in my teaching practice to fold that in more intentionally. But with the way that I'm structuring my classes right now, it is very like individual one-on-one. What's the skill that this kid wants to learn versus this kid? And you don't get the same output that you would get if you were teaching like a drawing 101. Everyone's going to draw a still life. 

[0:25:08] CA: Yeah, I remember teaching drawing and the perspective assignment. Everybody aced that, right? But you think about that and there's their parameters. And once you get it, I don't want to say that it's easy. But at the same time, you can figure certain things out. And then the output looks like what you expected. And I think a lot about that because there are so many set parameters, there are formulas to use. What if there aren't? 

I think there are models too, like you and I were talking earlier, like the Bauhaus and certainly Black Mountain College. I actually think that Black Mountain College is perhaps a more relevant thing to be thinking about and a model to look at today than ever. But I live in today, so I don't know what it's like then. But at the same time, we look at the reality that it didn't last for more than 20 years. It wasn't sustainable, and there were so many, from my research, realistic challenges. That's a hard one. But if you ever look at their curriculum, which is circular, it's really a fascinating model to kind of imagine yourself as an educator working from. 

[0:26:21] JA: I need to revisit that. 

[0:26:23] BB: Yeah, I wonder how – if there's elements that are similar to design thinking. It's that whole circular model of reimagining and – 

[0:26:31] JA: Just re-entering the cycle. Yeah. 

[0:26:33] BB: – reworking what you have. 

[0:26:34] CA: By the way, I'll just add for you guys and anyone who's listening, there is an amazing book called The Experimenters, if you're interested. It was written by Eva Diaz, who's a professor, I believe, at Columbia University. And she took a couple of years and wrote this beautiful book looking at three of the figureheads or the main faculty at Black Mountain College, Josef Albers, Buckminster Fuller, and John Cage. And they, in a way, all fit under the umbrella of people for whom experimentation was central. 

But their understanding of experimentation – Josef Albers was very contextual. He taught color theory, not in terms of rules, but just putting things next to each other. And then you have Buckminster Fuller, who comes from a scientific method background in position. And then John Cage, very upfront, like there are no rules, you know? And use chance operations and stuff like that. 

And I think I read that book regularly now and I think about it a lot. Because I think there's also – as educators, there's something really wonderful when you have multiple people who work together and have mutual support and respect for each other and stand in solidarity, but also celebrate the differences amongst them. And I think that's really, really great. And that's why I've always liked – I've actually really appreciated about all of the institutions that I've always worked for. And I think that's a key reason I stick with – if I stick with a place, that's why I stick with it. 

[0:28:12] JA: Yeah, that's good to hear. 

[0:28:14] BB: We'll have to link that book in the episode notes because I'm curious to read that too. So I'm sure others will be. 

[0:28:20] JA: Can you describe an aha moment you've had recently? 

[0:28:24] CA: Recently? 

[0:28:25] JA: Or one that resonates with you? 

[0:28:27] CA: I'm 54. I have a lot. Well, I will say something that happened recently. I think you and I were talking. I was lucky enough to co-teach a course this past semester with my colleague Yoav Horesh on looking at Basque culture and Basque history and using astronomy as a vehicle, as a metaphor almost, for creatives to think about the creative process. And we had a wonderful group. There were only seven students. And we really dove into where history, and cultural identity, and industry, and food, and art all sort of merge. 

[0:29:07] BB: Wow. 

[0:29:07] JA: And so over the last year, I've always been fascinated by – or for a long time, I've been fascinated by the Basque culture and the Basque region. And I knew a little bit about the art, but I've had to be a student over the last year, which, by the way, is great for us teachers, to just sort of – if you get booked for a course that you don't know as much about as what you normally teach, it's fantastic. 

But in that, I knew about some Basque artists, and I knew about Jorge Oteiza, a sculptor. I didn't know a lot. I saw the images and I was there. They were cool. But when I was there, I mean, heart's just pouring out of my head. I'm just like, "My goodness." And I got to exist and spend time with some very large-scale sculptures, some very small scale sculptures. We didn't go to his museum, which is in Navarre. But I saw his work in different museums and bookstores. 

Since I've been back, one of the things – I guess, two things. One, going on a trip like that and having researched and planned because I had to be one of the people in charge. I'm surprised by how many curiosities came up and how much research I'm doing unprovoked since I've been back. Very much about Oteiza, but also like all kinds of things. But I'm just totally fascinated by him and not just his work. I really love his work. But there was just something about the more I'm digging into his way of working and what that means for him and [inaudible 0:30:41] and their relationship being Basque. I don't know. I don't know if that's an aha moment, but that's something that's been on my mind a lot lately. 

[0:30:48] JA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of – I feel like I've seen food come up quite a bit. In our interactions as well, we talk a little bit about food here and there. And I remember you talked about a book about – was it about salt. 

[0:31:03] CA: Yeah. 

[0:31:03] JA: Yeah.

[0:31:03] CA: Well, there's salt. And then it's Sweetness and Power is the sugar book. 

[0:31:07] JA: Yes. Yeah. 

[0:31:08] BB: We have a list of books to add to our Creative Guts book club here. 

[0:31:11] JA: And I remember, I think the one time my wife may have met you was we were at a grocery store and I bumped into you, and I was trying to find her wine to cook a roast with. And I think it was like Côtes du Rhône. #notasponsor. And I know you've done work too where you've made bowls and served soup in them as like for charity, right? 

[0:31:31] BB: Is it the Empty Bowls? 

[0:31:32] CA: Yeah, Empty Bowls was started by a couple back in the 70s, I believe, and has sort of spread all over. But I've also done – you might be thinking of there was a performance/installation I did years ago when I was in grad school. And we did it with the grad program. 

[0:31:49] JA: Yeah. Was it with the thresholds? 

[0:31:52] CA: Well, what we did was one particular project had – I would make these spheres out of clay. There's a way to – if you know how that works. You don't have to just have an open vessel, but you can close them up. And the challenge for me as a technician, if you will, was to make these perfectly round spheres. I would do that and keep them wet and then invite people to sort of say, "I had each of you hold a half, like you supported it, and then have you grip it and pull it apart." 

And an interesting thing that happened in that moment was something that I – did I make it? Right? Here, I'm providing this wet, pliable sphere. But the moment – and so you guys may start out with this beautiful support and care for me and what I gave you. And then as soon as your fingers dig in, I've watched people like – it just immediately changes. And it's like we're kids again. It's like, "Oh, that's great." And then it's mine. 

And so what I would do, what I've done a few times is have people do that. And then, unbeknownst to everybody, go and fire them very quickly and then bring them back, either glazed, or un-glazed, or whatever, with food being served in them. And it's an interesting thing where people – I remember throwing a party after this happened, and about 30 people showed up, and they're looking and their first instinct was, "Where is mine?" But then it didn't matter. And these objects facilitated a sense of community in multiple ways, and it was really, really wonderful. But I think that's the one that you're – 

[0:33:23] JA: Yeah. Well, I know we've revisited food a few times just in conversation. I was curious about – yeah, I'm glad you were able to talk about that. 

[0:33:31] CA: I will say that, speaking of food, there are – and if we're going to have links to things, Anthony Bourdain's 2006 one-hour episode of No Reservations, it's called Decoding Ferran Adrià, is a really must see for anyone who makes art. It's a documentary basically of El Bulli, which was a restaurant in Spain, along the coast of Spain. And it was a fascinating model where the restaurant was open for three months a year. And it's one of those prefix 35 courses, small bites. Very exclusive. Well, exclusive in the sense of very expensive. And it's everything that is molecular gastronomy. 

And Anthony Bourdain was very upfront. And I really do look to him as an inspiration. And he was very upfront. I thought this was out of left field. This is BS. It's like the equivalent of the banana on the wall kind of thing. And then he visited. And what I found in that, I don't want to spoil it, is for nine months a year, chef Ferran Adrià, and his brother, and his colleagues, they were chefs, they were chemists, they were industrial designers, all working together in a laboratory hidden in Madrid. And they weren't creating a menu per se. They were following curiosities of their craft. 

And they built this beautiful map of creativity where they had – and I may get it wrong, but like products, or ingredients, techniques, tools, and then styles. And the thought there was that you can use that structure. That structure is not linear. You can enter that map of creativity from any point, and you can change different variables. And it's fascinating to me. 

The designer towards the end of El Bulli, Luki Huber, imagine the conventional model in my mind is that a chef, especially a famous chef, makes a thing, makes a dish and says, "Hey, Luki, we'd like you to make a bowl for this." And Luki is at the service of what the chef did. But in their model, Luki Huber, I don't know, maybe he's walking through and he sees rain dropping in a puddle and he has this idea for a shape. And he comes in and goes, "Hey, guys, I need you to make a dish for this bowl shape that I came up with." Right? It's like this real back-and-forth, like non-linear kind of way of working. And it worked for them. And it led to some interesting things. 

And I think one of the benefits of it is watching Anthony Bourdain, who's a more classically conventionally trained chef, re-evaluate or recalibrate his relationship with some of these new kind of techniques and things that look like they're pushing against tradition. 

[0:36:19] BB: Yeah. 

[0:36:19] JA: Right. 

[0:36:19] CA: It's a really great – 

[0:36:20] BB: Yeah. We'll definitely add that. And it was the No Reservations episode decoding? 

[0:36:25] CA: Decoding Ferran Adrià. And I can get to all that stuff for you later. 

[0:36:32] BB: I think we might need to move into our rapid-fire questions. 

[0:36:35] JA: Okay. 

[0:36:37] BB: What other artists has influenced you the most? 

[0:36:40] CA: Boy, that's a really tough one. I'm not always a huge fan of his work, but what's behind the work. Anish Kapoor's way of working is truly inspirational. I was reading once, he had a quote that he said, "Is it my role as an artist to be expressive? I think not. I have nothing to tell you. It is my role as a creative to bring expressivity." And I think what he meant by that, because I've researched this a little more, is I don't have any prescribed meaning for you to get from my work. However, I want that work to operate in a way that it forces you to bring your own expressivity out into the world and to create meaning. And it's something that we all say as artists, but the way he said it. And when I look at his work, I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know." I have to say Ursula von Rydingsvard is also quite a huge inspiration to me. 

[0:37:36] BB: I'm not as familiar. 

[0:37:38] CA: She works with cedar planks. The De Cordoba has a beautiful outdoor sculpture of hers that I have lunch with every now and then. She historically has worked with four by four cedar beams of various lengths and then sort of brings them together, carved ends, scratches. She's got grinders and all kinds of tools, and rubs graphite into them. Beautiful. Beautiful work. 

[0:38:03] BB: And it was Ursula? 

[0:38:04] CA: Von Rydingsvard. And Mylin. 

[0:38:08] BB: Oh, yeah. 

[0:38:10] CA: And again, sometimes it's not the work itself. I think it's often interesting to look beyond the work and at the practice. That also can lead you away from people. 

[0:38:22] BB: Yeah, yeah. 

[0:38:24] JA: All right. Pivoting. What's your favorite color? 

[0:38:28] BB: A little faster rapid-fire questions. 

[0:38:32] CA: It's an interesting question. Maroon is probably my favorite color, but I don't wear it much. I don't exist with it much. I'll just say I have an issue with having favorites and superlatives because I think the color to me is what's appropriate in the moment. 

[0:38:49] JA: Yeah. Cool. We got like four more of those. 

[0:38:52] BB: Yeah. But that said, what is your favorite scent? 

[0:38:59] CA: Oh, that's easy. 

[0:38:59] BB: Okay, good. 

[0:39:00] CA: It's tied for two. You know when you order takeout Chinese from like an American Chinese restaurant and it comes in a paper bag and then you put it in the car to drive home? I will say that that scent makes me so happy. 

[0:39:18] BB: The impending MSG. 

[0:39:19] JA: With the grease and paper mixing together. Yeah, sure. 

[0:39:21] CA: It's beautiful. But that said, when you put paprika, saffron, and garlic, and onion together, like a paella. Nothing better than that. 

[0:39:30] JA: Okay. Moving down the sensory things here. Favorite sound? 

[0:39:33] CA: You know that right before a thunderstorm or as a thunderstorm is coming, there's a crackle and a dull? It's like a thump and a crackle of the thunder, but it's so far away. It's like – 

[0:39:44] BB: Impending. 

[0:39:45] CA: Yeah, it's there, but it's not right on you. I love that. 

[0:39:48] BB: Yeah, that's a good one. Favorite texture or touch? 

[0:39:51] CA: Wind. I like when wind blows on your hands and stuff. 

[0:39:56] BB: That's a good one. I don't know if we've ever had that as a touch. That's a good one. 

[0:40:00] JA: What's the most inspiring location you've traveled to? 

[0:40:05] CA: I'm a little jaded because I was just lucky enough to travel to Spain. It was a little town in Japan up the river off the coast south of Tokyo. I don't know the name of it. And it was sublime. I was there with my school at the time, New Hampshire Institute of Art. And it was just this little town, and it wasn't overly traditional, and it wasn't modern, and it wasn't even dramatic. But I felt different there. It was really, really lovely. I should look that up. 

[0:40:36] BB: Something off the beaten path. 

[0:40:37] JA: Yeah. Google Maps it or something. 

[0:40:39] CA: Probably, yeah. 

[0:40:41] BB: It was south of Tokyo. 

[0:40:42] CA: Yeah, along the coast. And then there's a river and it went up. 

[0:40:47] BB: What is the last new thing that you've learned? 

[0:40:52] CA: Wow. The last new thing. Oh, my daughter and I learned how to make gnocchi key the other day. We followed some guy on YouTube and we made gnocchi for the first time and it actually turned out great. 

[0:41:08] BB: Awesome. 

[0:41:08] CA: I don't know if that fits.

[0:41:09] BB: That's totally fits. Yeah. 

[0:41:09] JA: That fits great. Oh, I love that. 

[0:41:11] BB: Very good. 

[0:41:12] JA: If you could go back in time, what advice would you give your younger yourself?

[0:41:16] BB: Our big clincher question. 

[0:41:18] CA: You know I don't believe in that. 

[0:41:19] JA: I know. 

[0:41:21] CA: I don't want to mess with it. I don't want to mess with it. I guess just don't take yourself so seriously. I mean, I think we all feel that way. But, no, I don't want to go back in time. We wouldn't be here. 

[0:41:31] BB: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[0:41:32] JA: I love that. Butterfly effect sort of thing. Don't mess with it. Hands off. 

[0:41:35] CA: Yeah. 

[0:41:37] BB: That's valid. And you're not the only guest who've said that before, too. He's like, "I don't want to say anything." 

[0:41:41] JA: There you go. 

[0:41:42] CA: Now, these are good questions. It keeps us on our toes. It's great. 

[0:41:44] JA: Yeah, absolutely. 

[0:41:45] CA: It's awesome. 

[0:41:47] JA: Awesome. Well, I think that's all for us today, folks. 

[0:41:50] BB: Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for being a guest on our show today, and we can't wait to get this information and all of these links and names as well included in our description notes, because it's been really, really informative. Thank you very much. 

[0:42:02] JA: Yeah. It's been great being able to catch up with you, too. 

[0:42:06] CA: Yeah, well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I love what you guys are doing. This is awesome. 

[0:42:10] BB, CA & JA: Show us your creative guts. 

[OUTRO]

[0:42:16] JA: A big thank you to Chris Archer for joining us on Creative Guts today. 

[0:42:20] BB: This is great. 

[0:42:20] JA: Yeah, it was such a pleasure to get to reconnect with him. It's been a long time. I don't think I've spoken to him since, except for bumping into him that one time at a grocery store when he gave me a recommendation for – 

[0:42:30] BB: For wine? 

[0:42:31] JA: For wine. Yeah. 

[0:42:31] BB: That's good. That's always a good reason to bump into someone. 

[0:42:33] JA: I know. I know. 

[0:42:35] BB: I loved hearing about his evolution, and I wish we spent more time perhaps talking on it. We had so much to talk about. We could have gone on for hours. But how he was originally in school as a bio student. And then he thought he wanted to be a printmaker, but then he fell into the world of clay and ceramics. And just that evolution and realizing like, "Oh, wow, I can do the thing. I can be a creator, and a maker, and an artist." It's so important for people to think of themselves in so many different facets. And how he still has a connection to that fascination with biology and nature, but how he's just living this amazing life as an artist and educator, too. 

[0:43:12] JA: Yeah, he's definitely – multifaceted is a good way to describe it, interdisciplinary. And I knew we were going to leave with a lot of other things we wanted to follow up on. Yeah, I'm just really happy that we got a chance to chat with him. 

[0:43:23] BB: Yeah. His insight into teaching art and how to teach art and education as well was just really uplifting and insightful for me, and probably for you as our educators. 

[0:43:33] JA: Yeah, definitely. 

[0:43:34] BB: And I look forward to having him on campus sometime in the future to be able to work with our kiddos. 

[0:43:36] JA: Yes. Absolutely. 

[0:43:39] BB: Chris also did such a great job of talking about the artists and other creative set of influence to him and inspired him over time. We'll definitely link this information about a few of the artists and organizations Chris mentioned in the episode. As always, you can find those links and more in the episode description and on our website, creativegutspodcast.com. You can also find us, the Creative Guts podcast, on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord. If you're not on social media but you want to stay in the know and find out what we are doing, please join our newsletter list. 

[0:44:11] JA: This episode is sponsored in part by the Rochester Museum of Fine Art. Thank you to our friends in Rochester for their support of the show. If you love listening and want to support Creative Guts, you can make a donation, leave us a review, interact with our content on social media, purchase some merch. Whatever you're able to do, we appreciate you. Thank you for tuning in. And we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode of Creative Guts.

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