In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Laura Harper Lake and Sarah Wrightsman chat with Catherine Stewart, a playwright, filmmaker, dancer, and more! Catherine is the co-founder of Film Unbound, which has become a collective of artists who make mission-driven media for changemakers, inventors, and innovators. Formerly, Catherine served as the artistic director of the New Hampshire Theatre Project in Portsmouth. This episode includes a truly fantastic conversation about ensuring your work aligns with your values, knowing when to say “no” and when to say “yes”, and balancing creativity with admin. We also get to hear the adorable story of when Catherine met her husband! Catherine isn’t on social media (we’ll talk about that, too), but you can sign up for her newsletter at https://makecreatemore.ck.page/ and you can find Film Unbound at www.FilmUnbound.com. Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Be friends with us on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/CreativeGutsPodcast and Instagram at www.Instagram.com/CreativeGutsPodcast. If you love listening, consider making a donation to Creative Guts! Our budget is tiny, so donations of any size make a big difference. Learn more about us and make a tax deductible donation at www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!
In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Laura Harper Lake and Sarah Wrightsman chat with Catherine Stewart, a playwright, filmmaker, dancer, and more! Catherine is the co-founder of Film Unbound, which has become a collective of artists who make mission-driven media for changemakers, inventors, and innovators. Formerly, Catherine served as the artistic director of the New Hampshire Theatre Project in Portsmouth.
This episode includes a truly fantastic conversation about ensuring your work aligns with your values, knowing when to say “no” and when to say “yes”, and balancing creativity with admin. We also get to hear the adorable story of when Catherine met her husband!
Catherine isn’t on social media (we’ll talk about that, too), but you can sign up for her newsletter at https://makecreatemore.ck.page/ and you can find Film Unbound at www.FilmUnbound.com.
Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Be friends with us on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/CreativeGutsPodcast and Instagram at www.Instagram.com/CreativeGutsPodcast.
If you love listening, consider making a donation to Creative Guts! Our budget is tiny, so donations of any size make a big difference. Learn more about us and make a tax deductible donation at www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com.
Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!
[00:00:00] LHL: I'm Laura Harper Lake.
[00:00:02] SW: And I'm Sarah Wrightsman.
[00:00:03] LHL & SW: And you're listening to Creative Guts.
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:18] LHL: Hey, friends. Thanks for tuning in to Creative Guts.
[00:00:21] SW: We are super excited to be back with our first interview of the season. Today, we're talking with Catherine Stewart. Catherine is a playwright and the co-founder of Film Unbound. I first met Catherine in 2019 when she was the artistic director of the New Hampshire Theatre Project. And she's been on the list ever since. I am super excited for this interview.
[00:00:40] LHL: Oh, I'm beyond excited, too. Without further ado, let's jump right into this episode of Creative Guts with Catherine Stewart.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:52] SW: Hi, Catherine.
[00:00:53] CS: Hi.
[00:00:53] SW: We're really excited to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for coming.
[00:00:57] CS: Very welcome. It's exciting to be here. I’ve been a long-time listener of the podcast. Yeah. It's great.
[00:01:02] SW: Yay. Thank you. This is a good story that our listeners have heard probably before in pieces. We started this podcast right after I graduated from Leadership Seacoast. And this was sort of my like – in Leadership Seacoast, I was like, "I got to do something with my life that benefits the community outside of just housing stuff." When Laura asked me if I wanted to do this with her, I was like, "Yeah. Absolutely." And I met you through Leadership Seacoast. It all comes full circle. You've been on my list probably the entire time.
[00:01:31] CS: Oh, great. I'm glad I'm here. I hope I don't disappoint.
[00:01:36] SW: This is the problem with long-awaited episodes.
[00:01:38] LHL: The pressure is on.
[00:01:40] CS: Okay. Okay. I'm bringing my best art.
[00:01:43] SW: Will you start by introducing yourself to our listeners and just telling them a little bit about you as a creative?
[00:01:49] CS: Yeah. Absolutely. I am a Scottish native living in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I lived here for about a decade. A little over that actually. And I am a playwright, a theatermaker by trade. That's my training. But because both my husband and I had theater degrees, we also had to find something else to do with our lives. For a little while, we actually ran a web design business. Most people don't know that, back in Scotland. And then we moved to the US for a variety of personal reasons. My husband's American. And we moved here to help care for his father.
And we got here and realized that life is short and we hated making websites. We actually started a film business, Film Unbound, together. And made client work and creative work. That way, that's how we were telling stories for a number of years. And then at some point, Michael, my husband, decided to head off and go work in the film and TV industry down in Boston. And I was like, "I really miss theater." I really miss making theater and being in theater. And that's when the New Hampshire Theatre Project kind of opened its door to me as a creative and a playwright. Dove back into that for a number of years. And then in the last few years, I've returned to filmmaking. And that's pretty much the day job is documentary filmmaking.
[00:03:16] SW: That's awesome. I actually didn't realize that you were no longer at New Hampshire Theatre Project. Because that's how I met you, was there.
[00:03:22] CS: Yeah. It was a change. I was offered a position as an associate artistic director and then became artistic director right before Covid. I had about a year or so of work. And I've been working with the company as a teaching artist and they produced one of my first plays. Kind of that was like a serious play or a play written with words on a paper as opposed to devised or created in the room. And that was in 2016. And then there were a couple of years of working with them.
And then taking on that job in 30-year-old arts organization and an organization that was going through leadership transition, and growth, and change. Teamed with Covid. I loved lots of the challenges. And then at some point, it just didn't feel sustainable for my family to keep doing that job. Nonprofit arts is a really tricky place to be. And it got even harder in 2020. I’m really proud of the work that I did with them.
And then took some time. I was halfway through an MFA as well. I kind of decided to spend the last year really focusing on my writing and thinking what else do I really want to be doing? Where do I really truly want to be putting my energy in this time? That made sense to the kind of larger focus of me as an artist. And film just crept its way back in. And then after a few years, I was like, "Oh, this is really it. This really feels like the lifestyle I want and the approach."
[00:05:10] SW: That's fantastic. Sort of an aside question, did you meet your husband through theater?
[00:05:17] CS: Yes, I did. His name is Michael Rodriguez Torrent. And we were both studying in England. In the north of England. I shall paint a picture for you because I want you to picture like the Yorkshire moors. It's Heathcliff and it's Cathy. No. It's nothing like that. We were studying at a place called Bretton Hall College, which was a 17th-century mansion drama school. Yeah, Downton Abbey is pretty spot on. That's what it felt like.
And the grounds of that school was the Yorkshire Sculpture Park. There's Henry Moores. And there's James Turrells. We're just hanging out in. And as crazy drama students, by that point, it was a much larger school throughout the 60s and 70s. And then shrunk. Became smaller and smaller. In the 2000s, early 2000s when we were there, there were about 200 drama students living in these 1960s dorm buildings. And Michael, who was studying at Arizona State University at the time, had come over to do a year abroad. And he was the year above me. And he was on the acting course. I do that through inverted commas like he couldn't properly do it. But he was an actor. And it's still a beautiful actor. He just doesn't kind of take on roles anymore.
But I was in the year below in a theater and performance course. We got a hand at like everything. And, yeah, I met him as I was leaving the dorm day one of freshers week. And I had met some friends in the building and we were going to the refectory for some food. And this guy bounced into the building. Chatted to us for a few minutes and then went away.
And I remember going down the hill and being like, "Was he Australian? Where was he from?" No. He's not. He's from Connecticut. But I obviously wasn't paying attention. Anyway, there's a few more years of story that's better told over a glass of wine. But we were – yes, eventually, we became a couple and did the long-distance thing for a while. And he finished his degree in England. He came back and finished it. And then, yeah, a couple of years kind of living, and traveling and living in different countries. And then we were here as of 2012.
[00:07:42] SW: I love that.
[00:07:44] LHL: That is so beautiful.
[00:07:45] SW: Pros and cons, right, of you end up with somebody who's in the same world as you versus somebody who's like, "I don't know he could be like an accountant or something." And that would be totally different.
[00:07:53] CS: Yes. And there are definitely times that we're like, "Why doesn't one of us have a degree that makes more money?" And then we're like, "We know entirely why that's not the case." And we have also kind of – this is where my privilege comes in as well. But maybe, also, I love to buck the trend of the struggling artist or you can't make a living as an artist, which I know you guys talk about all the time on this podcast, is that for the most part, we have been two artists being artists full-time all of our careers.
I've never had a "day job". A proper job. Yes. It's just never happened. Being the artistic director of the New Hampshire Theatre Project the first time, I was like, "Oh, I have to go in." And there's a desk. And there's a – which is so crazy because it was also beautiful flexibility, lovely artistic growth. Every day was different. My quote on quote "real experience" is also – it's a very particular lifestyle. Yes. Yes. We love to see it.
[00:09:05] LHL: Are you balancing some of your other – you're primarily doing filmmaking right now? But are you balancing your other creative interests? Are they still like weaving their way into your life currently?
[00:09:15] CS: Yeah. They really are. And I think that's it. I think I'd like to describe myself as kind of an artist with a capital A. That's just the way life is. It just affects everything. And it's the profession. But it's also how I show up in the world and the way I like to think about it. And, yeah, I am still making theater and working on plays and had a play at the Players' Ring in January of this year. And I'm continuing to develop that piece to probably bring it back next year in a slightly different iteration.
And theater work is still happening. What I wanted and needed to do though was kind of separate theater-making from capitalism and work in order to really figure out where that spark still was and what it meant to me. And what it means to gather people for theater, particularly in this current moment. And the truth is people want to pay for films more than they want to pay for theater. And funding is better. And the opportunities have arisen for me to be able to call the day job filmmaking. And it's such a joy every day that that's what I'm doing. And then, and then, and then, and then. I just started taking a screen-printing class and finding other ways to put my writing out in the world and just making all the time. That's really my thing.
[00:10:45] LHL: It's beautiful. It sounds like a dream.
[00:10:48] CS: It does.
[00:10:48] LHL: Tell us about the challenges. We need a little balance before –
[00:10:56] CS: Yeah. Of course. There's lots of good stuff.
[00:10:57] LHL: I know. My head is about to float off into the clouds. But you kind of – you're talking about like the day job, and making money and all that kind of stuff. There's that. But then what other challenges have you faced or have witnessed others in the same disciplines kind of facing?
[00:11:11] CS: Yeah. Absolutely. I think there's several. Our film business, Film Unbound, is a limited liability company. We're the sole partners. And I'm driving it at the moment. And that is – all our money goes into that. All the income goes into that. And then it comes to us, right? But that ebbs and flows, like any business does. And projects come and go. And you have to be in the process of making and thinking about what's coming next, and what's coming next, and what's coming next. And that can be exhausting.
And I very consciously have to – there are days of the week where I don't do administrative work in order to do the creative work. And then there's days of the week where I don't even kind of allow myself to work on film work. There's other. I really have to be really strict with boundaries. And that is an ongoing process of learning, and what's working and what's not working.
We had some really sad personal family stuff happen this year. And that meant that, for a couple of months out of the year, we just had to put our energy elsewhere. And it meant travel back to Scotland, and various things and the time it took to heal that. When you run your own business, arts or not. That really makes a difference with how the income is coming in and all the planning. The film that I'm wrapping up at the moment was supposed to end. We kind of wrapped up in June. And it just wasn't.
And the client has been fantastic. And the funder has been fantastic. And all my contractors have been fantastic. I'm not feeling those pressures this time. But I'm still there going like, "Okay. The last invoice is got to – I need it. And I need to get on the thing." That can be really stressful. And then switching off from that at the end of the day so that our life isn't consumed by those kinds of things.
I think the other thing is how to navigate this nonprofit world or not-for-profit world that artists are handed when they either want to work as a group or when they're working on a particular idea. And does that model truly suit the health, and well-being, and sustainability of a practice? I have lots of feelings about that. But I do also feel that it can do so much for an art practice but can also constrain and restrain the work that's going to happen yep. And I know that – I'm sure you guys seem to be finding that as well as you become a nonprofit, and building your board and all of those challenges.
[00:13:56] SW: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:13:56] CS: Thinking about how to sustain in the face of the fact that things cost money and the costs are rising is probably the biggest challenge, I think.
[00:14:09] SW: Yeah. I've never really thought before about, of course, there's this challenge of like if you're leading the work, if you step away because of family issues, or health issues, or whatever, that the work doesn't get done. So you don't get paid to do the work. You can't move on to the next project. That's really hard.
[00:14:24] CS: Yeah. And there's just that knock-on effect. And I think there was also a period of time – I had a back injury when I was 17. Because I was actually a dancer. That's how I started my life.
[00:14:35] SW: Oh. We'll circle back to that, for sure.
[00:14:40] CS: And I was heading off to college to do dance and then had this car accident that I cracked my sacrum, the bone at the bottom of your spine, and dislodged three vertebrae. And I don't know how at 17 I made the very sensible decision. I had also been accepted into the theater course at this drama school. Because we applied for college in a very different way. And we don't even have to get into that.
[00:15:06] LHL: We'll just take your word for it. We’ll do a part two —
[00:15:09] CS: That meant that I was able to not go to the dance, make this choice. I can't dance right now. I might be able to – I might heal. I might not. I'm going to take the theater degree instead. And the offer was to take as much dance and dance elective as I could throughout the degree. Beautiful. That was a gift. But it meant that I didn't kind of pursue that.
And I have had 20 years of chronic back pain because of that. And that has affected the work I can do. How I work? Where I work? How I sit in a chair? All these things that then affect how much work I can be and how productive I can be. And I have seriously taken time in the last year to find a way to heal that and have found something that truly worked for me. And that chronic pain has fully gone for the last couple of months at least. And who knows what else might arise or whatever? But that's just to say I had to take time. And in this country, I also had to take money and invest it in that health. It's okay. There's so many reasons to live in America. Healthcare is not one of them. But it's okay. I got to play about that.
Yeah. I had to take that time. And that time, and energy and money then also equates to, "Okay. To pay for this physical therapy, and these Pilates and this time, okay, I need another film project in the year. That's what my brain is always – or I can't say yes to directing that play because it's just not enough money for the errors it's going to be even if I love the story and love the collaborators and all that kind of thing. Yeah.
[00:17:05] SW: Yeah. And I'm sure you're not like, "Oh, I'm so glad I got into that car accident." But in some ways, was it like a positive redirect where you're like I'm really glad that I went full force into theater? Because here I am now doing theater and film together. And that might not have happened if it weren't for that?
[00:17:20] CS: Yeah. I think I haven't felt like that all the time over the last 20 years. There have been absolutely times that I felt so untethered in who am I even because I was always – I went to drama school. And everybody's there talking about Brecht and Shakespeare. And I'd never taken a theater class in my life. Our high school didn't have theater. We studied English. We read them from a literary point of view. But I'd never studied theater.
And I'm standing there going like, "Well, I can like show you my modern dance moves." But that's not going to work here. Or maybe it will in this particular class. I always felt like an outsider. And what I had to learn is actually that's the best place for me to be. And I think that's why I love living in this country as well because I like being an outsider exploring a different world and culture. Yes, it must have fed into that.
And I've also been fortunate to realize that everything just builds upon something else. And I've had the opportunity to return to dance, working with Sarah Duclos and Neoteric Dance Collaborative —
[00:18:31] SW: Cool.
[00:18:33] LHL: We love Sarah.
[00:18:34] SW: We love that.
[00:18:36] CS: She gave me such a gift when we met in 2013, 2014. And worked with the company for a number of years and I was able to dance a little bit, and choreograph, and support, and produce with Sarah. And that was huge. And it felt like a coming home of sorts, right? Because I was like, "Oh, this actually feels more me." And then few years away from that again and then I'm about to launch into another dance and movement project. It's seeing that it's not that a door has closed. It might not be active right now. But it's all part of us as artists. Everything we kind of pick up and play with, and put in our pocket and patch again.
[00:19:16] SW: Right. Oh, that's beautiful.
[00:19:19] LHL: It really is. And part of – the other part of how Creative Guts came to be and the subject of it was thinking about folks that I went to college with at an art school who do not practice anymore for whatever reason it may be. And to have the grit and perseverance to still stay within the creative field after a tragedy happens. And instead of just, "You know what? I don't want to see any of that type of creative joy because I'm hurting." I fear a lot of folks may do that. And so, that's very awesome that you decided to embrace a different field within the creative arts. Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:20:00] CS: That's also very much me being like, "Sure. Yeah." There is a bit of like I can try that. I can do that. A fearless kind of like saying yes. And that's how filmmaking came to me as well. I'd written half of a play. And I met a writer at college who had been in some like television programs as a younger actor. And we like made a play together that was also – it was called Extras Wanted. And the audience were extras on a film set.
We actually also produced a film at the same time and that screened. And then you got the onstage stuff and then the audience was involved. And I was, "I don't know how to make a film." My brother and I had played with like animation when we were kids or whatever. But I didn't know how to do it. But the best way to learn anything is just to do it. That's kind of the approach I like to take.
[00:20:52] SW: I love that.
[00:20:53] LHL: Oh. I have a thousand questions.
[00:20:55] SW: I know. Well, I really love your description for Film Unbound. You wrote, "It's become a collective of artists who make mission-driven media for change makers, inventors, and innovators," which is beautiful. Chef's kiss. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means? And how do you find clients how do film projects happen? Maybe, how do clients find you?
[00:21:15] CS: Yeah. Absolutely. It's really about who you know, and the connections, and being open and just showing up to the things that interest me and us. When I stepped away from the New Hampshire Theatre Project and had the kind of space, a little bit of money invested in my own time to finish my degree. And I called it my sabbatical. I was like I don't have to go get a job right now. Glorious, right?
[00:21:43] LHL: It's beautiful.
[00:21:45] CS: It was amazing. And that was, again, at the time the film industry was really booming. Michael, who is a second assistant on film sets, commercials, film television, he was working his ass off, to be quite honest. And we felt financially secure enough. His ass is fine.
[00:22:06] SW: Like, "Thanks for working your ass off, honey. I'm going to go take a sabbatical."
[00:22:11] CS: Yeah. That is exactly what happened. And, hopefully, he appreciates how much I appreciate him. Because we're a team here. But, yeah. I purposefully took a sabbatical and called it that and said I'm not going to jump into the next thing because this experience I've just had was rich and full. And I've got a lot going on in my head. I was able to take time and explore.
But what I wanted to do was volunteer in a time of George Floyd's murder, and Black Lives Matter and stepping up into what's really important. I looked around me and said, "Well, here's where I want to put my energy, can put my energy, can send my privilege. Here's where I need to learn. And here's where I don't."
And so, I stepped off every committee I was on for a little while and took a breath. And I continued to teach for a little bit. I was teaching for PMAC. And I was teaching for Arts In Reach at the time. But, also, that had been really hard a couple of years of online. I know so many people experienced – I was not bringing as much joy to that work as I should have done. And I realized that I needed to take a moment and step away from that. And that was really hard, because I love that work. But I wasn't the best teaching artist at that time.
And so, what I kept doing though was I showed up for Indigenous New Hampshire Collaborative Collective, INHCC, which is a group of indigenous and non-indigenous co-conspirators based around the state who are trying to reframe the narrative of indigenous habitation in the land of N’dakinna.
And I volunteered some time to edit some footage of a tour they'd done around Lake Winnipesaukee. And then one project kind of came to another and another. And then there was a little bit of money. And I questioned whether that was okay for me to take a little bit of money in this justice work that I wanted to be doing. And talked with my collaborators about that. And then the projects just grew.
And then for the last kind of 2, 3 years I've been working with the indigenous community to make a number of films. And that was just an organic process of here's a story. I have skills. And this approach of participatory filmmaking. I'm working with "professional and amateur filmmakers". Community members who have a particular skill, or knowledge, or something to say or share. And then I bring in the artists who might have particular experience in sound supervision and composing. CJ Lewis. Or illustrators, Jordan Schmolka, who come together and we make the film as a collaborative. And that has just continued to grow.
And then as I worked on the indigenous films, more people started to see the work I was doing and said, "Hey, I've got a story, or an idea, or a thing that is small. And we need it to be bigger. We need people to know." And that's when I go, "All right. I'm here." Because I'm also just an avid learner.
I love falling in love with a topic for a very short amount of time. Learn everything I can. Work really hard on it and then move on. And it's about entering the community ethically and becoming and being part of that community. And then saying, "Hopefully, you have all the skills. And to take the next step with or without me." And that's brought me a lot of joy and challenged me immensely as a white woman. How am I doing this work? And then the door has just opened up to some really great projects.
Continuing to work a lot with the Center for the Humanities at UNH. And I've just started a film project with a scholar, a historian called Kimberly Alexander, who has been growing flax in New Hampshire, to grow linen. To bring linen production back to the state. And so, that looks like it might be the next film project for the next 3 to 5 years. And I love it. Because I've been trying to write a play about the textile industry ever since the Rana Plaza disaster in 2013, where over 1500 people lost their lives. And ethical fashion, and fashion production, and American-made, it just is really important to me.
And so, I met Kimberly. She heard what I was already excited in. Every time she talks about the work, which goes back into the past, because we were growing flax. And we were making linen. And we just get very excited. And it grows. That's how projects kind of happen. It's about the people. People who have a story to tell. And I have maybe some skills that can help that story reach a wider audience.
[00:27:31] LHL: That's beautiful.
[00:27:32] SW: So cool.
[00:27:35] CS: Yeah. It's really cool. I'm sitting here, too. Because I also know, on Monday, I'll be filming with Emmett Soldati to tell his story of his relationship with Facebook and Meta. And what happened when he lost his –
[00:27:47] SW: Oh, cool.
[00:27:50] LHL: The David and Goliath battle.
[00:27:53] CS: Exactly. Exactly. It's that kind of thing when there is – and I really want to focus on New Hampshire. I don't need to look outside of New Hampshire. Because there are so many great individuals in this state who are doing wonderful things.
[00:28:05] LHL: Hear, hear.
[00:28:06] SW: Yep. Creative Guts gets that.
[00:28:09] LHL: We don't have enough time or resources to guest everyone. We feel terrible. There are lots of folks who are interested. Yeah, it's tough. But that's so wonderful to hear.
[00:28:19] SW: Yeah. It's really fantastic. I really like – I've been jotting down all of the past Creative Guts guests that you've mentioned.
[00:28:26] CS: I know. Can I also tell you that Amanda Kidd-Kestler is like my next-door neighbor at my studio? I know. She was such great company. And that's the thing. My studio at Chases Garage in York, Maine, is another place of – like a place of crossing for artists and individuals. And I think that's what's really important. And Amanda kind of opened up my eyes to the New Hampshire Art Association and being able to make different kinds of work with my writing and those kind of things. I just love meeting new people, I think.
[00:28:58] SW: Yeah. That's fantastic.
[00:29:00] LHL: Oh, I have a thousand million questions.
[00:29:02] SW: I know. Me, too.
[00:29:06] LHL: With a lot of your film work, it sounds like it's coming from someone else who has an idea, or a project, or a voice and a message they want to say. Within your own creating of where your own ideas come from, when you're thinking about – I guess I'm curious. What subject matters are you going after? And then, since you have so many outlets for being able to convey a concept, how do you decide what's a play? What's a film? What's a –
[00:29:33] CS: Great question. That's a really great question. For me, the subject matter really is about this element of justice regardless. And that's just looking back over my practice that pattern emerged for me. Whether it's environmental justice, or indigenous justice, food justice, the textile industry, healthcare. These are all things that I've touched on.
And then a friend of mine who recently described my work, which is that's the most magical is when you get someone else to be like, "What do I do?" And they can say it. And you're like, "Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Great." Because I find describing or looking at my own work really hard. But they said to me recently that I think, particularly in my plays, when I am constructing the narrative, that I write singular individuals who are almost always women who are trapped in some kind of larger societal system or structure. And I think that's what I'm interested in. My work is always based in research, and interviews, and real world about things that are happening right now.
And so, one of the greatest things that I'm proud of with Sarah Ducos and Neoteric is when we created Shelter, which was an evening of work about intimate partner violence and sharing the stories of others told through text performance, dance and animation. And it's these things that are kind of hidden in plain sight that I love and love digging into. And kind of like – as Emily Dickinson said, "Look at it slant." Can you tell it from a slightly different angle that helps us actually see? Because we're all swamped with life, and what it means to live and survive, and grow and thrive. And I like to tell stories that help us take a step back. See the work. See the individual. And then see what we could do as a community about that.
[00:31:49] LHL: And are you finding that you need to take time to process heavier topics and to – you're obviously collaborating with a lot of people to make sure that voices are creating together and being heard properly? But for yourself, injustice is such a hard thing to deal with whatever your background is. So how are you coping with that while you're trying to communicate?
[00:32:18] CS: Yes. It's a really great question. Yes. Nourishment is key, and that's lots of different things. That's about having a great community of people around you. But, also, I've realized that I need solitary time as well just to process and then these creative Wednesdays that I do where I don't open my laptop. I don't open my email. I don't take meetings. Those days, I've got a list of things that I'm allowed to do that are like I can dance to music really loud, and I can cook a new meal, and I can go for a walk, or I could learn a new art form, or I can write. But they are not for a particular project that is the thing that's being worked on in the moment. That's how I kind of care for myself and take time.
I think at the moment, the work in itself is also nourishing because I've decided how I want to work, who I want to work with. That's all I can do. The documentary that I'm wrapping up at the moment is about Hannah Dustin who was a 17th-century white woman who was kidnapped by Abenaki Indians as part of ongoing warfare between the English and the French. She scalped 10 of her captors and returned with the scalps and received bounties.
This is what I've been working on for the last year, and it's really difficult to do that work but then also I'm not doing it alone. I'm working with both indigenous and non-indigenous individuals, scholars who know this work deeply, activists, and historians. I wrote the narrative, but we formed an advisory council to construct it and receive feedback, and build and what are we missing and what aren't we missing. The reason it's taken a year is because it takes a year to do that well, if not more. So it's collaborative. Then I'm alone and editing, and that can become a lot when I'm in the room alone.
Again, the joy of being up at Chases Garage is that I can step into the kitchen, and there's a ceramist or a print maker who's working on something else. I go and I talk to them and I see their work. Or we have a chat or whatever and then back to the work. I feel like everything about my life is set up to do this work and to keep doing the hard work and not shy away from it. That doesn't mean I don't really want this project to be over and maybe not to be in this particular subject matter. But then I also say, well, I have a huge amount of privilege in my life, and it's a story that has to be told and the work. I talk a lot about work being discomforting or feeling discomfort or work being dangerous. I'll never do dangerous work, but I really have to be okay with making myself uncomfortable.
[00:35:37] SW: I love that. Really well put, too. This sort of circles back to this whole idea of you got to pay the bills and capitalism but also art and your values. Have you ever had to say no to a project where you're like, “That just doesn't match my values.”? Are you ever like, “Money sounds good, though.”?
[00:35:57] CS: Yes. You know what? Again, and I said previously that my MO is kind of like, “Yes, first, right?” Learning to say no as an artist and as a business person and as an individual is the biggest thing. So, yes, I have had to say no, and I have definitely been in a project where I have said yes and thought, “Whoops, this should have been a no. Why didn't I realize this at the time?”
[00:36:29] LHL: So relatable. Yes.
[00:36:29] CS: Then you have to say no partway through or like, “I’m finishing it and then it's no after,” and all of these – or why is this a no. Can I turn it into a yes at the moment? Why is this starting to feel like a no or a yes that became a no? All these kinds of things because projects don't stay static with every new thing that emerges or new collaborators brought in or new challenges.
I'm, again, fortunate to say that in this current moment, I've had this kind of laser focus on mission-driven media, and it makes sense when I say it to people. It makes sense in my heart. It just makes sense. The people who are approaching me are more often than not in the circle. They're in the – we're in the right room, and I can bring them even further along to say here's what I really do. If you don't want me or you don't want that particular process or participatory process, then I have got some great media production companies that I can send you to. But I don't make commercials. I just don't. That can be really lucrative work that I have to turn down, and that’s okay when I have to pay my rent in Portsmouth.
But, yes, for the moment, it's working. And. I'll like knock on wood every day to hope that it keeps working because sometimes it's just hope. It's belief. That's the only thing that's sticking all this together.
[00:38:07] SW: I really love the idea of even if it starts a yes, this project is currently a no. How do I get it to a yes? I think that, obviously, that's beneficial for you. You're like, “I want to be working on things that are aligned with my values.” But it's also probably really good for the project, too, to be like, “Hey, I've got a red flag. This is starting to go in a weird direction. Let's try to get it back on track and get it to a place where it makes sense and it's good.”
[00:38:30] CS: Yes, absolutely. Being clear on that is only ever appreciated by the people I'm working with, even if then they're also like, “Oh, yes. This isn't – you aren't delivering what we need or what we thought we needed.” Or, “Do you know what? We've realized we don't actually need what we thought we needed. We don't need anything right now.” I'd rather they know that, and we know that, and everyone knows that because we've all got other stuff to do.
[00:38:57] LHL: Yes, absolutely. If folks are wanting to work with you, where should they head to?
[00:39:02] - [00:39:04] Guest and Hosts Crosstalk
[00:39:05] SW: Film Unbound, obviously.
[00:39:05] CS: But someone needs to update the website, and it is mid-work. Yes. The best thing to do is to email me directly, and I can deliver that to you guys right now.
[00:39:20] SW: Notoriously elusive Catherine Stewart.
[00:39:22] CS: Yes. I don't mean to be. I just – yes. I'm not on social media and stepped away from social media a few years ago, again, for that values-aligned work. The way to get me is – or grab me in the street. There you go. I've got short curly hair and glasses and I'm Scottish. You'll find me. If I'm not in Portsmouth, I'm in York.
[00:39:44] SW: Skulk around Portsmouth until you come across her. No, I love that. I also love that you mentioned this ahead of time. You're like, “I'm not on social media. I left Facebook in 2016.” Hearing that you're working with Emmett on a film project about his little battle against Facebook, I love it. Love to hear it.
[00:40:04] CS: Yes. We're very much at the kind of pre-interview stage, so we're in development. We're figuring out what this is. I've known Emmett for a number of years. We were having tea a while back, and I was like, “Were you ever interested in like making a film about this?” He was like, “Hmm, maybe.” He has a background in film, which if you didn't know that, you have to get him back on and ask him to tell you about that.
[00:40:27] LHL: I don’t think that we covered that.
[00:40:29] SW: He has a background in everything. I don't know.
[00:40:31] LHL: He's a man of mystery.
[00:40:33] CS: He is a man of mystery, which is also fascinating. We're really collaborating on what this will become and who knows. But we had to move the filming date from earlier in the year to now, and it's exciting to just get him in front of the camera. I hopefully want to be surprised by Facebook actually, right? I really hope I genuinely enter into this with the same curiosity and open-mindedness of any subject matter. That's what I try to do.
But to tell this particular story of this product that was built on the premise of social connection that has done so much negative work in how we interact with one another as human beings feels really juicy.
[00:41:20] SW: I know. I fear you might be a little disappointed. Facebook, this is what I used to say about Craigslist, but that's no longer relevant. I always used to say Craigslist was like a really, really good idea. That didn't work that well because humans are humans. Now, Facebook is like, “Oh, it's a good idea in theory.” It sounds like a good idea. I'm part of several Facebook groups. People are connecting over common hobbies. As long as the group is moderated well, it's okay. But people are still people, and it's still Facebook at the end of the day, unfortunately.
[00:41:56] LHL: There's privacy and AI and children's safety and all and probably a whole other basket of things we could cover.
[00:42:04] CS: Exactly. When anything grows and then has to monetize itself, and there are shareholders and stakeholders who want to gain in their investment, and you're essentially using a free product, you have to ask how's the money going to get involved. That is what all experienced. I actually remember Michael. Way back, my husband, Michael, is showing me his Facebook page in 2005 when he came to study in England because he had Facebook as an American University student. We were all like, “What is this, magic?” It was so interesting and fascinating and had so much power. It’s just the power just kind of grows, and it's that unchecked power that I think is the scary part of it.
I found that there were large parts of my brain. Going back to that nourishment question, something that deeply wasn't nourishing me and in actual fact was emptying the cup was either feeling like I wasn't spending enough time marketing myself because that's what it was on those sites or interacting or seeing the work of other people and only feeling like I was failing. It just made me think, “Well, what do I want it for?” I want to stay connected with people, and so I work really hard to have coffee dates and hang out and stay in touch and text and call people and communicate in the way I want to. Does that mean that I miss out on some events? Sometimes. Does it mean that some people have no clue what I'm doing? Yes. Well, okay. But I can't – okay. That's going to be the case.
[00:43:59] SW: You measure the good and the bad and probably get a small percent of the happy birthdays that other people get.
[00:44:05] CS: Right, exactly.
[00:44:06] LHL: You get only the real, genuine, authentic happy birthdays.
[00:44:11] CS: October 25th you can wish me happy birthday if you see me on the street. There you go.
[00:44:17] LHL: Right that day, we got to –
[00:44:18] SW: That's going to be so weird, though.
[00:44:18] CS: I love that.
[00:44:20] SW: I love that. Run around. We're going to send you an email. Oh, my gosh. Do you act? Do you do anything on the stage or only behind the stage?
[00:44:31] CS: No. I quite enjoy emcee or hosting. But, no, I don't enjoy acting by learning a role or characters. But I have performed in the past.
[00:44:41] LHL: Okay. Favorite stage to perform on or to direct on or what have you?
[00:44:47] CS: Yes. I really have a thirst to return to sight-specific and kind of more impromptu forms of performance. I think that's what the current moment kind of needs, so a little bit of Guerilla Theater in the street is maybe in my future.
[00:45:03] SW: Cool. Were you a person who's comfortable with improv?
[00:45:07] CS: Yes, yes. A little bit. I work with UNH’s PowerPlay, the interactive development organization that uses improv. I work as a facilitator. That's the closest I get to acting is helping them work with bias or climate subjects or various different things as an improviser. I do do that for a little extra cash now and again.
[00:45:28] SW: Love it. Now, it's time for rapid-fire questions. What's your favorite color?
[00:45:34] CS: Orange.
[00:45:35] LHL: What's your favorite scent?
[00:45:37] CS: Freshly baked bread.
[00:45:38] SW: Hmm.
[00:45:39] LHL: Hmm.
[00:45:41] CS: Favorite sound? That.
[00:45:45] SW: The next question is favorite sound.
[00:45:47] CS: Yes. Do that sound you just did.
[00:45:48] SW: Hmm.
[00:45:48] LHL: Hmm.
[00:45:51] CS: It’s that sound. When you hear an audience have a collective moment. Best thing.
[00:45:57] SW: That is such a great – it’s such a good answer. What's your favorite texture to touch?
[00:46:02] CS: I love corduroy.
[00:46:04] LHL: It's a good one. What's your most inspiring location you've traveled to?
[00:46:09] CS: I've traveled lots, very lucky. Standing on the Great Wall of China not where all the tourists were and absolutely the middle of nowhere and just seeing for miles, and there were no other people. That was – standing on this thing that size was just phenomenal.
[00:46:25] LHL: Wow, that's so cool. What's the last new thing you've learned?
[00:46:29] CS: Yes. Screen printing by Ned Roche. Learning to put words on screens and then print them.
[00:46:35] LHL: Cool. Love it. Our clincher question, if you could go back in time, what advice would you give your younger self?
[00:46:42] CS: That’s hard. You got this.
[00:46:46] LHL: It's just that. You got it. I agree and I love it. You do have this. You are amazing. It has been such a pleasure to dive into your mind.
[00:46:53] CS: Thank you.
[00:46:56] SW: Yes. Thank you so much.
[00:46:58] CS: Thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun. It's really cool.
[00:47:01] LHL: Thank you again, Catherine, for being on the Creative Guts podcast. With that —
[00:47:06] All three: Show us your creative guts.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:47:12] LHL: A tremendous thank you to Catherine for joining us on Creative Guts. That was an enthralling magical interview.
[00:47:22] SW: Truly one of my favorites ever.
[00:47:24] LHL: Yes. I mean, you already knew her, but I had no former history or experience with her. Oh, my goodness. She is lovely as a creative, as a person, as a thinker, and how her place in the world, where she sits in the world. That's really powerful.
[00:47:41] SW: That's a really good way to put it. She's got this really amazing perspective, clearly this really thoughtful perspective, thinking about things like impact all the time, and working toward doing work that aligns with her values. Love it.
[00:47:59] LHL: And being okay with being uncomfortable.
[00:48:01] SW: Yes, which a lot of people aren't. Yes.
[00:48:05] LHL: Well, it's hard to self-reflect, look at yourself in the mirror, recognize your own privilege, where you're sitting. It’s just – yes. Then connecting with the folks that align with the stories that you want to tell and how you want to tell them. Yes. There was responsible creation and ethical considerations. She sort of wrapped into telling us the story of how she works.
[00:48:29] SW: Yes. That interplay that all creative people are sort of intimately aware of between money and capitalism and art and values and where do you find that line between like, “I can afford my rent and I'm doing something that I feel really good about it.” She's doing such a good job figuring out how to strike that balance and walk that line and be really consistent about it and showing up for her work.
[00:48:53] LHL: She really is a natural storyteller. I haven't even seen or films or plays that I'm aware of. I'm already just like – I'm just wrapped up in the way that she tells the story. I mean, that meet-cute with her and her husband, how school is over there versus here, just so many little elements. It was so personal, but I also felt like I was watching someone in front of a camera. It was amazing.
[00:49:18] SW: Yes, yes. You know what's interesting? I had the same thought during the interview where I feel like part of what makes this interview so great is that she's very comfortable talking about these topics and talking about her own creativity. She has this – we could call it natural storytelling. But, also, because she's trained in storytelling that –
[00:49:37] LHL: Yes. We don't want to be reductive of the work that she's put into it.
[00:49:41] SW: Exactly. Her ability to weave a story also made for a great podcast episode, so thank you, Catherine.
[00:49:50] LHL: Not being on social media, that's a dream right there.
[00:49:56] SW: It is. It is. I really appreciated everything she said about balancing the heavy topics, her own self-care, learning when to say yes and when to say no. Even saying no after she's already said yes was just – I think there's a lot in there that we all, especially creative people, can learn from. Unfortunately, it's always the best people who are the people who say no to stuff. They would say like, “If you want something to get done, ask a busy person.”
[00:50:26] LHL: Oh, my goodness.
[00:50:29] SW: Of course, I mentioned this during the episode, but it's always really cool to be having a conversation with somebody and to hear multiple people that we know, just all those connections.
[00:50:39] LHL: Yes, I know. There's like six or seven there.
[00:50:42] SW: Yes. Catherine mentioned Sarah Duclos, the Neoteric Dance Collaborative, PMAC, Arts In Reach, Emmett Soldati, Amanda Kidd-Kestler, all people that we have talked to on the show or organizations that we've talked about.
[00:50:54] LHL: New Hampshire is a small, special, very creative state, truly, truly. If you want to learn more about Catherine, good luck. No, I'm just kidding. Go chase her down. There's a couple towns she'll be in, and she's already self-described herself, so good luck.
[00:51:13] SW: Catherine is not on social media, but she does have a newsletter that you can sign up for. It’s makecreatemore.ck.page. Don't worry. You don't need to memorize that link. I will put it in the episode description for you and on our website. Then you can also keep in mind the website is under construction but filmunbound.com. Or you can just go visit her in person at Chases Garage in York which is where her studio is. That's York, Maine.
[00:51:38] LHL: Perhaps pop an email to her first.
[00:51:40] SW: Pop an email. Yes. As always, you can find those links and more in the episode description and on our website, creativegutspodcast.com. You'll find us on Facebook and Instagram @creativegutspodcast.
[OUTRO]
[00:51:53] LHL: This episode was sponsored in part by the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts. Thank you to our friends in Rochester for their support of the show.
[00:52:00] SW: A big thank you to Art Up Front Street for providing a space where Creative Guts can record.
[00:52:04] LHL: If you love listening and want to support Creative Guts, you can make a donation, leave us a review, interact with our content on social media, or purchase some merch. Whatever you're able to do, we appreciate you.
[00:52:14] SW: Thank you for tuning in. We'll be back next Wednesday with another episode of Creative Guts.
[END]