In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone sit down with Ashley Normal, a New England-based artist, educator, and community builder.
In this episode of Creative Guts, co-hosts Becky Barsi and Joe Acone sit down with Ashley Normal, a New England-based artist, educator, and community builder whose work explores the strange, fragile, and absurd edges of everyday life. Through drawing, painting, mixed media, and altered materials, she examines themes like mental health, womanhood, gender, memory, and social taboos.
To learn more about Ashley Normal’s work, check out her website at www.ashleynormal.com or follow on IG at www.instagram.com/ashley_normal.
Listen to this episode wherever you listen to podcasts or on our website www.CreativeGutsPodcast.com. Connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Discord. Subscribe to our Substack newsletter at creativegutspod.substack.com.
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Thank you to Kennebunk Savings Bank for being an official sponsor of the podcast!
Thank you to our friends at Art Up Front Street Studios and Gallery in Exeter, NH and the Rochester Museum of Fine Arts in Rochester, NH for their support of the show!
Any views or opinions expressed by our hosts or guests do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Creative Guts.
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:00] BB: I'm Becky Barsi.
[0:00:01] JA: And I'm Joe Acone.
[0:00:03] BB & JA: And you're listening to Creative Guts.
[0:00:18] BB: Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to Creative Guts.
[0:00:20] JA: Today, we sit down with Ashley Norman, a New England-based artist, educator, and community builder whose work explores the strange, fragile, and absurd edges of everyday life.
[0:00:29] BB: Through drawing, painting, mixed media, and altered materials, she examines themes like mental health, womanhood, gender, memory, and social taboos.
[0:00:37] JA: Let's jump right into this episode of Creative Guts with Ashley Normal.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:45] BB: Welcome to the podcast, Ashley Normal.
[0:00:49] AN: Hello. I'm so happy to be here.
[0:00:50] JA: Welcome.
[0:00:53] BB: Ashley Normal, that is an alter ego, a pseudonym for Ashley Norman. And we're going to get into some of the little nuts and bolts about how that name came about. But thank you for being on the podcast today. We're excited to have you.
[0:01:03] AN: Thank you so much.
[0:01:05] BB: And for folks listening in, Ashley and I met in grad school at Mass Art. We were in the low residency program together, hanging out during the summertime, living in a dorm room, which was kind of the experience for people in our 30s.
[0:01:20] AN: Yes.
[0:01:21] JA: You guys were dorm buddies?
[0:01:22] AN: We were living in the same dorm. I was living actually with some – a couple of my roommates were in their late 50s, early 60s. So, it was very interesting. Not your traditional MFA program.
[0:01:32] JA: Never visited art school.
[0:01:33] BB: No. No. So, shout out to Mass Art for bringing us together today.
[0:01:37] AN: Yes.
[0:01:38] BB: And also, you had some work in one of our shows here at the Lyceum Gallery I think in 2019. So that was the last time that we really connected. But for folks who don't know anything about you, can you just begin by telling us a little bit about who you are as a creative?
[0:01:53] AN: I am an artist and educator through and through. And I make mostly mixed media work, but I've dabbled in everything from performance art. I love watercolor. I kind of take whatever the concept is and find the media that I want to work with.
[0:02:09] BB: That's great. What are your concepts? What's your bread and butter? What do you dig into?
[0:02:15] AN: I do a lot of prompt and chance artwork. So, sometimes it's just going through material and responding to something. I just ended something called Februllage, which is my favorite prompt of the year. It's a community prompt. It was started by the Scandinavian Collage Museum and the Edinburgh Museum of Art. I think I got that right. And they put out a calendar every February. You respond to each word of the day. So, I made it all 28 days.
And it's like the good old days of Instagram because everyone is like really – the community is locked in, and really generous and kind. And I always kind of leave the month connecting with a couple of people. For that month, it was each word of the day. One of the words was pigeon. I have a lot of boxes that I have these systems in my studio space. I say studio. It's a desk in my bedroom. But I still make a ton of work.
[0:03:15] BB: It's still a studio.
[0:03:16] JA: Still works.
[0:03:16] AN: It still works. But I've had this photograph lingering forever, and I'm like, "This woman is the perfect pigeon." I just kind of went with it. Sometimes it's that, or like having shows that there are calls and kind of going with that. And then I would say bigger themes in my work are a lot of recently kind of oneness, connection.
We were talking a little bit before the podcast of having the experiences of loss or that life is too short, and I've had that especially over the last eight years. And so one of my series is this ongoing series of hearts that I find connected to my best friend passed away from an accident. And so now it's like this kind of connecting to her. But also, I used to not really talk about stuff like this in my art practice because it's too mushy gushy whatever. But I think where we all are in the world right now, we need a little more mushy gushy.
[0:04:16] BB: Yeah. I like that.
[0:04:18] AN: Yeah. And then collage-wise, a lot of it has to do with whatever I'm currently going through. When I had my daughter a couple years ago, I was nursing her, and I did a whole series of woman as food. One woman had like a lobster roll in her face. But I think I was thinking about the female body as nurturing, and that kind of led to the body of work.
[0:04:41] BB: I love that. I never even thought about the woman as food. Yeah. But that makes perfect sense. Yeah. I mean, not being a mother myself, but knowing my sister is currently nursing as well. That is a labor.
[0:04:53] AN: It's a labor.
[0:04:54] BB: It's a labor after the labor to continue that process. Tell us a little bit more about your process even with collecting materials, the Februllage. In some ways, those prompts are similar to like Inktober, I'm guessing.
[0:05:06] AN: Yes, exactly.
[0:05:07] BB: But it's just doing collage materials. And then you mentioned systems. And you remembered that you had this pigeon image, but somehow you found it amongst your collection. Tell us a little bit about what's your process for organizing your materials? I love process conversations.
[0:05:23] AN: I'm a big process fan.
[0:05:24] BB: And coming up with not beyond the inspiration, but deciding how to arrange your materials.
[0:05:31] AN: Sometimes it's like the materials excite me, and then sometimes I'll go into the materials looking for something. For Februllage, I have a couple of different bins in my studio. So, one is like a section of old magazines. I love working with vintage magazines specifically. I work mostly from 1940s through the '70s. That's like my real dream situation. And then I'll work with more contemporary magazines as well.
[0:06:02] BB: Do those still exist? Contemporary magazines?
[0:06:05] AN: They're few and far between. And the paper quality is getting worse and worse. That's kind of a little element where you might not expect it. But the paper quality of the older ones and the ink is so much nicer to work with. I have that kind of system. I have a box of different old photographs that are black and white. I have ones that are like pre-1900. Then I have some like different ones. I have a stack of 1970s, more early color photographs.
And then I have a system, which I also have in my art classroom, called Happy Accidents. Essentially, in the classroom scenario, if a student is working on a piece of paper, say 9 by12, and they've worked on it, they want to give up. I've redirected them. It's just not going anywhere. They can put it in this Happy Accidents in the making bin and then I quarter it to pretty much 4 by 6s. And then people can work back into it. And Happy Accidents comes from Bob Ross.
[0:07:06] BB: Shout out.
[0:07:07] AN: Shout out to Bob Ross. And if I have work that's been hanging around for a while, I'll just cut it up. I love watercolor and I love ink. I've recently become a huge fan of suminagashi, which is a Japanese marbling technique. Sometimes if I'm not driven to do collage, I'll be like, "I'll do some starters," is what I call them. And then sometimes they start big, and then they'll go smaller.
I worked last year on a show where I had set the constraint for myself that all of the work was going to be 3 inches by 3 inches. So I cut a lot of them to 3 inches by 3 inches. Now I have a little basket of these little 3 by 3s. Setting up all of these different systems. I work on postcards a lot. I organized those into different themes.
Around the pandemic, I did a series called enveloped, and it would be mostly yellow dots. They're kind of like Polynesque, but also what's in the air. I have a whole section of postcards that would make good scenes for that series. And then I'm really into colored pencils right now. And I love acrylic markers, acrylic ink, watercolor. So those are just some of the many systems that I have.
[0:08:23] JA: Earlier I heard you use the word prompt, and it seemed very deliberate. And in my head, I feel like that could go a bunch of different ways. I'm curious when you started claiming that word as a part of your practice. Is there anything influencing you?
[0:08:38] AN: Yeah. I know sometimes that you talk about different artists that inspire you and things like that. I'm really into Surrealism and Dada, and also the Black Mountain School of Art. And so a lot of artists – or Yoko Ono has the book Grapefruit, which is kind of there's some different prompting things in that. I think being a teacher, I prompt my students all the time. And so then I'm like, "If I prompt them, I can prompt myself also." I just did a workshop yesterday where I have a list of prompts. I can send them to you guys afterward. It's called Baldessari Bonanza.
[0:09:17] BB: Sorry. We're talking about Baldessari today.
[0:09:20] JA: That's so funny.
[0:09:22] AN: And so they're all based off of John Baldessari's work, but it will be make something all in black and white, put a dot on it, image as text, text as image. Combining two of them together. And then recently, because I'm a total geek, I love dice and things like that. I eliminated one of them, so it was 20. So we can use a D20.
[0:09:43] JA: You're in good company.
[0:09:44] BB: Yes. Oh my gosh.
[0:09:47] AN: Now, if my students are like, "Miss Normal, I don't know what to do." I'm like, "Roll the dice." And then they're like, "I don't know about this." I'm like, "Roll the dice again. You make your own journey."
[0:09:56] BB: Right. Choose your own adventure.
[0:09:58] AN: Yes, exactly. Same thing with in my practice. If I'm kind of like at a standstill, I sometimes will even just put stuff out in front of me, close my eyes, and just put my finger on something. I'm like, "That's what I'm working with today." How can I get these different prompts and chants in making and teaching?
[0:10:19] BB: Oh, I love that.
[0:10:19] AN: Gamification all the way.
[0:10:21] BB: Yes. Yeah. Well, Joe got me into gamification when he first started here. And it's been transformative to both of our teaching activities. It just makes things so much more fun, too.
[0:10:31] AN: Yeah, play is the way.
[0:10:32] JA: Play is the way. I'm going to steal that. I love that. I know. Right? And it's a perfect sort of merger of like art and nerdiness, right?
[0:10:39] AN: Yes, exactly.
[0:10:41] BB: Were you a gamer? Or you play D&D or anything?
[0:10:44] AN: I'm married to an engineer. Has always wanted to do D&D. We've done like a little bit of it, but we have a 9-year-old and a 4-and-a-half year-old. Now if we're going on long journeys in the car, it's mostly the two of them that are playing. But sometimes my nine-year-old will be the dungeon master. And it's like amazing. They'll go through all of these amazing scenarios. I dabble a little bit, but –
[0:11:08] BB: You're supportive of the nerd culture. That's great.
[0:11:10] AN: Yes.
[0:11:10] JA: I appreciate you.
[0:11:11] AN: Yes.
[0:11:13] BB: Well, let's get back to going the way, way, way back machine. Where did your creative passion begin? When did you start creating and why?
[0:11:22] AN: Really tapping back into all the writing that we did during our MFA program. I feel like I really started to realize when I was younger. My parents were divorced. I spent a lot of weekends at my famor and fafa's house, which is my father's father. And my famor is a folk art painter. She does mostly 1700s Revolutionary War reproductions. I did Revolutionary War reenactments when I was younger with them.
[0:11:48] BB: That's so cool.
[0:11:50] AN: I got to make candles. Snd so whenever she was working, she would just give me a paper plate of paint colors that she was using, and I could kind of mess around and do something. But when I was younger, I feel like in high school, I wasn't voted the most artistic, but I was voted the most unique. I was just kind of like just – I always was curious, always doing things.
And then I had my mom, which Becky knows a little bit from my work, but I've done a lot of work on mental health and things like that. My mom has a delusional disorder. And growing up, art and writing truly saved me. And I think a lot of artists feel that way. My husband always jokes that I'm at my best when I'm making art daily and practicing yoga and meditation. And it's 100% true. I really connect. Louise Bourgeois has a quote that art is the guarantee of sanity. And when I saw that, I was like, "100%." And I feel like my creative practice has saved me and continues to save me.
And I feel like as an artist and educator, I think that creativity connects us back to ourselves and each other. And so that's like my main focus is like how can I get these individual students to realize they have something inside of them. They might not have found their medium yet. But how can you connect back to what's really going to help sustain you as a human in those dark and trying times, or in the bright sunshiny times, too?
[0:13:27] BB: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's funny because whenever I think of Louise Bourgeois, I actually think of you, because I remembered that she had such a huge influence on you during grad school. And I think I only had like a peripheral understanding, but now I integrate her into some of my lessons with the students, too. And so it's like, "Oh, Ashley Normal." Back of my head when I think about Louise Bourgeois.
[0:13:48] AN: Connecting.
[0:13:48] BB: Yeah. Also, you're working, you're a mom. When do you actually find the time to create?
[0:13:57] AN: I think that that is another thing that's amazing about having systems. The 3 by 3s, I keep in a little pouch. I don't have them right now because I knew there wasn't going to be any time. But usually, I literally keep a container in my purse all the time. And most of the time, there isn't time to make. But say that I get to my son's school 15 minutes prior, I could doodle, or I could do something.
Trying to set up systems. Working small, also, if my kids are playing outside. I can take a clipboard and three colored pencils. And even if I'm only working for five minutes, I think when you tap in, then it's percolating on the back burner, and it's not totally fizzled out. So that at night, if I'm not totally exhausted, I'm like, "Oh, my goodness. I started that one watercolor layer." Sometimes I'll even bring watercolors into the kitchen and I'll put boiling water on, and I'm like, "I have 5 minutes before this water boils. Can I add one layer of watercolor?" It's a lot of making in these small moments. And I think because I do realize that it is very much connected to my mental health, sometimes I just have to make – I feel like I just have to get something out.
[0:15:17] BB: I think that's really inspiring, the fact that you're making these bite-sized pieces that you're doing in the margins rather than scrolling or something, because it's so easy to be distracted by a device in these day and age. Or some people, and I've felt like this myself, "Oh, I don't have time to make an art piece," because I don't instinctively think small.
[0:15:39] AN: I think most people don't. Yeah.
[0:15:41] BB: Yeah. But it's just as valid. It's just as wonderful. And I'm so excited that you find these pockets of time to create these little bite-sized artworks.
[0:15:49] AN: And then I think sometimes I'll install them in kind of a salon style way. Even though they're all these small moments, if they're installed together, they might make a 4 by 5 piece as they're all installed together.
[0:16:02] BB: Yeah.
[0:16:03] JA: That gives me so much anxiety to work so small and like be working in the margins. I don't know why. And I feel like that's something I need to work through.
[0:16:11] AN: But I think it's also the preciousness of it. And in that collage workshop that I did yesterday, there was a couple of students that were like really struggling with, "What if this isn't archival?" or whatever. And I definitely was there at different points.
[0:16:24] BB: Wait. Your middle school kids were talking about –
[0:16:27] AN: No. No. No. Adults. It was adults yesterday.
[0:16:28] BB: Okay. I'm like, "Wow, you've really, really taught them well."
[0:16:33] AN: They're very advance. But I do think that we get into these moments. I had a professor in college who was really just an inspiration in the art ed program, but he taught the studio classes there, but he was a public-school teacher for a while before he went on to that. And I had spent, I don't know, maybe 20 hours on a painting. It was very Aboriginal style dots.
If any of you know my work, I use meditative drawing in the background a lot. So, definitely tapping into that. But this painting wasn't going anywhere. And I was like, "I don't know. I just don't feel like it's anywhere that it needs to be." And he's like, "What if you –" it was on Masonite. "Would you cut it up into really small sections?" And I was like, "I just had 20 hours on this. I don't know. Would I cut it up?" And I did. And it was like a really good exercise and just letting go. And I think as a human and an artist, that is a very challenging thing.
And sorry to segue, but I love the book The Artist's Way. And I've been trying to kind of do morning pages, but having young kids, it's like, "Am I willing to go to bed at 9:30, 10:00 to be able to wake up early enough to get anything done?" I've always been interested in tarot. I did a little bit of it when I was younger, but I've been using this morning prompt where I'll pull a card and kind of just use that as a prompt kind of connected to morning pages.
Many people don't believe in the big G word, but you can write God, or source, or higher self. Or I feel most connected to the universe if I'm touching moss sometimes. What would moss want me to know today? But one thing that keeps on coming up in that practice is temperance, which is something like I'm really trying to think of how can I surrender. How easy could this be if I just give a little bit just out to the universe and not try to micromanage so much? Because it is hard.
I think as an artist, if you're going to get anywhere, and also as a teacher, you can't just be like, "Whatever." You do have to take action to get someplace. Sometimes it's hard to find that balance of planting seeds. Let's see where they grow. But I don't have to be hovering over the crop.
[0:18:57] BB: Yeah. Oh, that was a great way of saying it.
[0:19:00] JA: Yeah. Mic drop.
[0:19:03] BB: I just want to live vicariously through you. I think like you're channeling all these things that I want to instill in my own practice. This is really wonderful to hear. Great inspiration.
We know early, early foundations. Now, did you know when you were in high school? I mean, you didn't get awarded most likely to be an artist, but did you know you wanted to go into art education and to go to art school?
[0:19:26] AN: That's a great question. In eighth grade, we had a home ec class, and we had to do a project where we took – I can't remember. There was a name for the standardized test. I think that they would give it to people when they were entering the military to find what you were interested in doing for a job. But I did really well on the answers around education and art and design. And I was like, "Education, art and design. Maybe I want to be an art teacher."
And my aunt is seven years older than me. We're really close in age. She had just become a teacher, an elementary school teacher. I think I knew it was a possibility. And I think growing up with a lot of challenges in the home life, education is definitely this is an accessible thing. And public education, especially, is I believe a great equalizer and opportunity for people. I did this eighth-grade project on being an art teacher. And from there on, I was like, "This is what I want to do." Yeah.
[0:20:25] BB: Wow. That's so fantastic.
[0:20:28] AN: My husband's always like, "Maybe you want to go into something else? Because it is like not the easiest of these careers." But yeah, I feel really, I don't know, called or whatever. I really feel passionate about art education. Yeah.
[0:20:43] BB: Love it. Especially with two other art educators here.
[0:20:47] AN: Yes, exactly. Not that anyone knows what I mean.
[0:20:51] JA: Other than working with students, how important is community in your work? Does it live in your work at all? Is it totally separate from it?
[0:20:59] AN: Yeah, community is definitely an important part of my work. Actually, one of my most recent art projects is called Artwork In Progress. And my mom was unhoused for 12 years, and I had a drive to want to try to work with that population if I could find an opportunity. So, I had reached out to a couple different places, and the Nashua Public Library was one of the places I had reached out to, and they were like, "We might have some grand funding. I'm not sure." And it kind of fizzled out. And then this is getting like chills. Woo! Woo! Whatever.
When I finally got her into the hospital to get her out of her unhoused situation, while I was at the hospital, I got an email from Nashua Public Library saying, "We should reconnect about that. We have funds for specifically working with the unhoused population of Nashua." I did a series of zines that were some art prompts and some writing prompts.
We would kind of get together. We'd have some food and snacks. And it was open to anyone who was currently unhoused or in transition housing. And for those of you who aren't in public libraries right now, there is a huge – librarians are amazing in a million different ways, but they're really doing this huge amount of work with this community. And especially, most shelters are closed between 7:00 and 7:00, 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. It's like where can these unhoused people go that are safe during the day? And a lot of times, it is at the public library, especially if the weather is bad.
It was an amazing program. And I am still kind of writing the different prompts for that. And it's an ongoing thing. We either had three or four sessions, but it was really great. And I put some extra zines at the library, and the librarians would be like, "Someone took your zine home today."
[0:23:00] BB: Oh, that's great. Are you familiar with the Luna Moth Zine Festival?
[0:23:03] AN: No.
[0:23:04] BB: It's New Hampshire's first zine festival and zine organization. And I think it's happening in April. But you'll have to look into that a little bit. But I feel like there's even more and more of growth and awareness around zines.
[0:23:19] AN: It's such an accessible thing. And back to when we were talking about small artwork also, one thing that's really nice is you can still make a decent amount of money on it, but people can buy it. And New England houses for the most part are small. It's like people can have it in there.
[0:23:37] JA: The work you're doing in the library, can you unpack that a little bit more? Like You're doing zine workshops with people unhoused, people in the library?
[0:23:45] AN: Yeah. I would make a zine. We would do it once a month. And I think it was like an hour and a half, two hours. We would go in. I do have a background in yoga and meditation. I lived in Asheville, North Carolina for a while and was really fortunate to go through a program while I was down there. We would start with kind of a meditation. And then I'll have some type of mindfulness prompt.
Most of the time, we would do like a gratitude practice. But gratitude, even if you are in not the best situation, can be as simple as – I would use a different example. But to have people who are fortunate to be housed, knowing my mom and other people, sometimes I go in the shower, and I'm like, "I am so grateful for this water. I am so grateful for feeling the warmth of this hot water." And gratitude has been connected to all these different mental health studies. No matter where you are, it's a huge benefit to practice that.
Another thing I would do would be just doing a mind dump of like whatever is on your mind, just kind of writing it down. Sometimes we would have a quote as kind of a guiding presence throughout the zine. It would be what is something you would say to your younger self that you wish they knew? Just things like that.
And then I would do some type of art activity. The Happy Accidents, we did that as one of the prompts, which was really amazing. But I think sometimes if you get down to it, obviously there's outliers. But all humans want to be loved and have a great human experience. And I think when you work with different populations of people, especially whether it's being a public-school teacher or opportunities like this, it's just really awesome to hear these stories and learn from those people that I'm working with as much as hopefully they're taking something away from the practice. And I would try to make all of the work small so that they'd be able to take it with them wherever they're going. And zines I think is amazing, because you just need something to write with. And then you have like a little mini sketchbook to go with you.
[0:26:07] BB: Wonderful opportunity that you're offering not only just for a creative practice, but creating a safe space for people to reflect and to be able to take those moments for gratitude. And hopefully, they take that on in their day. And it's just something that we need more of in this world, right?
[0:26:22] JA: Yeah, absolutely.
[0:26:24] AN: Agreed.
0:26:26[] JA: I appreciate you citing gratitude and saying gratitude, and always reminding us about it. Because I feel, just personally, I want to have that constantly reminding me every day to tap in. And what a privilege it is to have the mindfulness to be creative in a space. And I feel the fact that you're providing that for folks who are in a difficult situation. Resources, of course, are the number one thing we want to provide folks. But to be able to squeegee out the challenges for a brief moment for creativity. And like you said, provide a human experience. It's very humanizing. Yeah, that's all I can say. Yeah.
[0:27:02] BB: There's a great book called The Five Minute Journal. Have you guys – it's called a five-minute journal because it ideally takes you five minutes a day. But there's a practice on the morning of saying three things that you're grateful for, three things that would make today great, and an affirmation. And then at the end of the day, you reflect on what you're grateful for and something you've learned for today. But it's a very small, digestible. I can take this five minutes. And even if I don't physically write it down every day, it's really embedded itself in my mind to just kind of be on the consonant. Or if I'm having issues with students, just being like, "They're having a human experience, too." We're all here having different human experiences.
[0:27:56] BB: Yeah. Need to remember that more frequently sometimes.
[0:28:00] JA: It's funny how – it seems artists are sometimes experts on habits. The habits and rituals and maintaining those over the course of time. And that's what we aspire to do, right? Is be productive artists, and be creating all the time. Yeah, I really just appreciate how much you're sort of describing your process. And you're giving us tons of resources to think about, too.
[0:28:21] BB: Yeah, for sure. I've got a lot of notes here. So, let's go back to who is Ashley Norman versus Ashley Normal.
[0:28:32] AN: So, I was in grad school. I'm trying to think of my exact age. I was in my late 20s starting grad school. And it was always kind of on the back burner that I would want to pursue an MFA, but I also didn't want to leave teaching because that was important to me. The low-res program at Mass Art was perfect because it was one of the only ones in the country besides maybe Vermont Studio Center where you could make the time to do both of those things.
Going into the program, I have been doing a lot of what I would consider biomimicry, microscopic landscapes. My husband's a nano engineer, so he's always like, "I think I might inspire you," which there's definitely some overlap there. But going into grad school and wanting to do stuff more conceptually, I had done a series of – I would draw these kind of brains from brain scans, and then I would work into the areas that were affected by schizophrenia.
And going to grad school, I'm like, "This is my work. This is exactly what I'm going to be doing. These very serious drawings of brains." And then you start taking classes and learning about other artists and things like that. And Jane Marsching, which you had Jane also, amazing artist, amazing educator. But I remember having a conversation with her, and she's like, "Is this the art for you? What other stuff do you do?" And I'm like, "Well, I make these really weird, kooky collages. I mostly just give them away to my friends." And she's like, "Let's see what that is." Once I started making these collages," she's like, "I think this is the work." And I'm like, "Hmm."
And so around that same time, I was at Chases Garage in York, Maine. And it was just perfect timing of like all of these amazing people working. And my friend, Tara Morren, who is a Maine artist, had turned me on to Wayne White. And he was just like so incredibly playful. If you've never seen, there's a documentary, Beauty is Embarrassing. I watched that around there and started to kind of give myself permission to do some kind of wacky things.
And around this time, and I'm sure no one can relate to this, but especially having someone in my life with severe mental health things going on, my mother wouldn't always talk to me in the kindest ways. I had this series of embroidery kind of connecting back to the folk art I would do with my famor when I was younger. If you've ever seen like the plastic embroidery that you'd use for kids if they're like starting embroidery. But I called the series Terms of Endearment, and they were like really horrific words that my mom would use to describe me.
[0:31:15] BB: Oh, gosh.
[0:31:16] AN: But in this very graphic, not in like a graphically provocative, but graphic design typography embroidered way. And so I had showed this series in the area. And it was online. And I was teaching in a small town in southern Maine, and I got an email or a Facebook message from a woman who is a mother but in the community, but also had new people who were artists in the community. We had connected over that. And she was like, "I totally get what you're doing. And I know that you're trying to work through these things with your mother. And I appreciate that. But I don't think everyone's going to appreciate that." And I was like, "Womp-womp-womp."
[0:31:58] BB: Oh, no.
[0:31:59] AN: Yeah. I'm paying to be in this MFA program. I don't want to censor my work. But how do I get around that? So, I started thinking about how do artists get around that? And researching people who would use pseudonyms, or alter egos, or pen names and things like that. And I brainstormed all of these different things of who would I be if I never had this person come into my life to help me get to where I am today? Or what would I be if I had this like totally different existence?
And then as I was brainstorming different names when I was an RA at Mass Art, the first time that we had an event to go together, they printed off everyone's names and they printed off Ashley Normal instead of Ashley Norman. And so I wrote that down as one. And then I really love the idea of what is normal, and thinking about shame. And why do we feel shame for certain reasons? It really was like a freeing thing and helped me kind of separate church and state.
And I don't do things that are quite as provocative anymore and the sense of it being over your head like, "Oh, here's a nude body or whatever." But sometimes it does go through some different things that might be harder to deal with. And I do feel like Ashley Normal lets me just kind of do whatever I want to.
And then being a teacher, you're kind of having to worry about censorship, but having a paycheck of an educator allows me to do any wacky artwork that I want. And like if I don't sell it, it's no big deal because I have enough to live on. It's kind of this balance. But people call me Ashley Normal sometimes and don't realize that I have a different name. That's like a pretty common occurrence that I have.
[0:33:56] JA: Yeah. I think I just really found out that –
[0:33:58] AN: Just put it together.
[0:33:59] JA: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. So, it was like kind of a marketing decision.
[0:34:03] AN: Kind of. Yeah.
[0:34:05] JA: But now it's like you're just like embodying it and you're living it.
[0:34:07] AN: Because now it's been like 10 years. And I haven't shown as Ashley Norman unless someone's made a mistake on a tag. That's the only time that that's happened. And then I think of like, "Do I switch back to my given name?" And I'm like, "Just kind of this is what it is."
[0:34:23] BB: It's great. I mean, even just with the bio or the about you on your website too, it's like, "Who is normal?" And I think that it's so important because – especially in the context of educating our students, too. And certainly in middle school when these kids are coming into their identities and trying to figure out who they are. And if they don't think that they are "normal", they're often – but nobody's normal, right?
And so I love that approach and that idea. But also, your work, too, because there's elements of Surrealism and Data, there's these things that are "normal" and recognizable or we can connect with, but yet there's things that create this juxtaposition or even a discomfort in the way that we're experiencing them. And so I love that you have those sides to your artwork and to your practice.
[0:35:17] AN: And I had said to Becky, I was listening to some of the podcasts over time. And Aris Moore, who I love, is another person. But there is a quiet, darker side of me. But I'm also like a pretty bubbly person. I think that sometimes – and a lot of artists are like that art kind of balances you. I can be a little bit of a dark horse while I'm making it. But I'm like a pretty happy person in general.
[0:35:43] JA: I mean, I'm curious if you have any specific answer to this question, which is what's a major sort of creative struggle you've had? Because it sounds like you have a lot of good prompts and mechanisms to kind of keep you working?
[0:35:56] AN: That's a great question.
[0:35:57] JA: Where do the wheels come off every once in a while?
[0:35:59] AN: I feel like being a caretaker, whether it's for my mom or my kids, things like life happens and like life gets in the way. I also realize I've given myself permission that I'm realizing I kind of, in the course of the year, have this very similar pattern. Where, starting in the fall, it's back to school. Some of my art practice might slow down a little bit. But I'm assuming you guys are probably the same way. If I'm teaching new classes or if I've gone to a new job and I discover this past year or two we had so much embossing material, metal embossing, I'm like, "I kind of need to teach myself how to do embossing. I'll kind of get into the mood in the fall of things like that.
And then I love land art, and I like going for walks. It definitely helps to clear my mind. Sometimes in the fall, it's more making stuff with natural materials for a little while, which also I can do with my kids. But then as the winter starts to come around, I love making ornaments.
My famor worked for Lord & Taylor when she – I don't know. For like 20 years or something. And she worked at the Burlington Mall and decorated all of the Christmas trees in the whole entire store.
[0:37:14] BB: Oh my gosh. In the whole –
[0:37:15] AN: In the whole store. Yeah. Christmas is like – that side of my family Swedish. And it's like a big deal. I love making Christmas ornaments. I've now realized you're going to be making Christmas ornaments. So you're probably not going to make like as much of your like – not that my art is capital A art, but it might not be that same thing.
And then Februllage has kind of come at the perfect time every year, where I'm like, "It's the darkest part of the winter. How do I get through this?" And it just prompts me to get going. And I also feel like the winter and fall is a great time to reach out to people and make connections and try to get things set up for the spring and summertime. And then the cycle happens all over again.
But I do have so many systems that I feel fortunate that I can always tap in. Because if I sit at my desk, and I'm like, "I have no idea what I'm going to make." I can say, "All right, I'm going to go into the happy accidents bin." Or I have a bin of unfinished work, or watercolors I started, and I'll kind of just start flipping through. Or maybe it's even just going through photographs. And something that didn't touch me before, now, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Oh, I see something different. Or I can make a different position or a different connection for whatever I'm going through today."
And also, just giving yourself permission that I do make a lot of work. But I think some artists get to a point where they're like, "I need to make the perfect thing right now." And if I don't make the perfect thing – there's always time for – back to John Crow, who I talked about before. I remember him sharing a story of another student who he had in his first year of teaching. He didn't really eat lunch during lunchtime. He ate during his prep. So he's like, "Well, you have 20 minutes. What can you make in 20 minutes?"
And I do feel like if we all look at our lives, not that I don't doom scroll, I think we all – it's like it's hard not to doom scroll. But even if I'm doom scrolling, there are really great parts of Instagram, which I do still love. Some of it's a wasteland. And I actually have recently been going more on Pinterest again, but just looking up art history imagery. Not necessarily crafty things, or folk art images and things like that. I feel like I'm at least doing like a little bit of research. And there's not the weird comments, and there's not the hellscape that is many social media platforms. I think that kind of answered –
[0:39:57] JA: Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Although I don't know that you actually answered the question. It sounds like you're still like providing us with so many insights. I love that seasonality that you just teased out. I feel like I'm definitely in that boat too. And using as a way to sort of integrate into other ways of working. Or you mentioned networking, which is really nice. And then, also, I love sort of that mentality. It sounds like it was a mentor of yours. You said John.
[0:40:21] AN: Yes. John Crow.
[0:40:22] JA: It's very much like a Minute to Win It kind of mentality, right?
[0:40:25] AN: Yes. Yeah.
[0:40:26] JA: Yeah, I love that.
[0:40:27] BB: I think you're offering a lot of inspiration, not only for for us, too, but just for all of our other listeners, just thinking about, "Okay, yep, just those little moments that just get that creativity out, get that idea out, just reflect or do something in those little moments." And over time, it can really add up. And you never know where those ideas and those little scraps of paper or the happy accidents been, how they can all come together at the end.
[0:40:53] AN: And I think sometimes, too, we get very serious of like I've met a ton of people that fall into the category of like, "Well, in undergrad I was completely an oil painter. And I don't live in a well ventilated house, so I just can't make any work anymore." It's like what can you do? And then sometimes thinking back to things that you loved as a child, how can you get back into some of like that weirdness and that unguarded part of you that was that seven-year-old version of yourself?
[0:41:26] BB: Yeah. Yeah, we need to tap into our inner child more.
[0:41:29] AN: Yes.
[0:41:30] BB: You've offered ideas for how to nurture and foster that creative energy. And you've talked about the things that you've personally struggled with and how that also is impacting your artwork. Let's say that things got really, really great with this. What would you do if you just suddenly came in to a ton of money? And sometimes that's not always a great thing, right? But what do you imagine your creative life would look like if that were to happen?
[0:41:58] AN: This is a dream scenario.
[0:41:59] JA: Of course.
[0:42:01] AN: I would still want to be teaching in some way. I recently started really getting into workshops. I think that adults especially, we can get so closed off. And I think chance and play, whether it's collage or something else, can really help us work through some blockages that we have, whether it's in work, or life, or a mixture of both. I think I would like to still teach no matter what that way.
I would love to compile a book of prompts, which I kind of have ongoing. And my friend, Tara, is always like, "Ashley, I think you already have the book written. I think you just need to put it all together."
[0:42:40] JA: Immediately.
[0:42:42] AN: So, I would do that. And then setting a schedule for myself. I would want to wake up at 5:30 in the morning. I would start with this writing practice that I've been doing. I write to GULLS. I recently saw someone say they –
[0:42:57] JA: Gulls?
[0:43:00] BB: Seagulls.
[0:43:02] AN: But it's not really – it's an acronym. For morning pages, Julia Cameron, who's the author of the book, says to write to God, or source, or whatever. Someone was like, "You can name it GUS, which would be God, universe and source." You're like writing these morning letters to GUS. And I'm like, "I like where this is going, but it's not exactly for me." I feel like everything boils down to love and light. How can we love each other more?
A lot of people that have near-death experiences or things like that say the lesson is love is all there is. As the Beatles also said. And then light, I think of when I'm meditating. And if you have ever practiced meditation, but you're essentially radiating light, like golden light out of you to all of these living beings.
My GULLS is – God is a heavy word. I was brought up Catholic. But it's like, "Okay, let's test the waters. Let's see how it feels." But God, universe, love, light, source, the creative source. The source that brings all of us. The oneness. I write in the morning to that and just say, "What message do you have for me? How easy could this be?"
That would be my morning part. I'd have a healthy breakfast, or maybe fast, or maybe not. Take my kids to school, go for a walk, work until they're done with school. If I had all the money in the world, I would definitely have someone cook my meals, healthy meals. But that would be amazing to just not have to think about food. And especially in a caregiver way of making food for other people, I would love that. And then, yeah, spend time with my husband in the evening, make some art. That would be the dream. Go to Haystack regularly.
[0:44:59] BB: Yes. Well, I think we have to jump into rapid-fire questions.
[0:45:04] AN: Let's do it.
[0:45:05] BB: What other artist has influenced you the most?
[0:45:08] AN: Recently, I would say Corita Kent. I found her through the Art Assignments video. It's on YouTube. But if anyone travels down to Boston, she did the gas tank. But she has classroom rules for when she was teaching college classes, and it's like kind of now what I use for all of my classes. And then, if I can cheat for a second, I would say Surrealist, Dadas, and Black Mountain School.
[0:45:36] BB: Excellent.
[0:45:39] JA: What is your favorite color?
[0:45:40] AN: So, my favorite color, I change all the time. But I would say for the last couple years, I really love a very specific kind of chartreuse that you find on moss. And if I'm going to cheat again, I would say the golden orange color of marigolds.
[0:45:58] BB: Oh, nice.
[0:45:58] JA: Love it. Chartreuse is one of my favorites, too.
[0:46:01] AN: It's chef's kiss.
[0:46:04] BB: What is your favorite scent?
[0:46:06] AN: Speaking of hay stack, there is this scent combination when you are on the sea coast of Maine when pine and salt water hit. And that is my ultimate favorite scent.
[0:46:16] BB: Love that.
[0:46:18] JA: Favorite sound.
[0:46:19] AN: I've realized that water. My daughter just got a fish, and we had a very small tank. But now there's like a filter running water. I was really fortunate to live next to the ocean for a couple of years. And I love the sound of running water. I also had mentioned at the beginning, which I don't know if it was on there, but I have hearing aids. I didn't get them until 2019. And so I'm like rediscovering. I was missing the birds. There's like certain things. I have a cookie bite. So I'm missing like the middle sounds. It's like a rediscovery of all of these nature sounds that I love. Yeah.
[0:46:55] BB: That's cool. Has that impacted your artwork at all?
[0:46:58] AN: So, one of the funniest things, for years I was like, "I don't need hearing aids," even though I really did. And I would watch things with closed captions, and sometimes they get the closed captions wrong, especially if someone's like doing it automatically. And there was this amazing – I can't remember the exact title of it. But it's about Paul Clay, and it's like something, discovering the angel or something like that. But it's a documentary about him. You can find it on YouTube for free. But there's a part where they're talking about him being a draftsman, and some of they're like, "He's always in search of a sandwich." But it was supposed to be like draftsman, or connection.
I did do a series of work where I would just start compiling all these hilarious screenshots of where the subtitles like didn't – and also, they will do subtitles for sounds in movies. I think it might have been the pianist. But it was like women crying, men yelling. And I was like, "That was a very gendered specific." There's all of these different things that, if you were completely deaf, you would be experiencing the world in this filtered way from hearing individuals. Yeah.
[0:48:14] BB: Yeah. It's something we don't necessarily take for – or we do take it for granted sometimes.
[0:48:18] AN: And I think it's affected my teaching. I work a lot one-on-one with students. And now even though I can hear pretty well with the hearing aids on, I've noticed it's just become a pattern where I'm like very much kind of beep bopping around the classroom. Yeah.
[0:48:34] BB: What is your favorite texture or touch?
[0:48:35] AN: I love the texture and touch of moss. It's one of my favorite things. But if I am going to be truly honest, I have a fleece blanket on my bed. And I love to just put it next to my face as I'm falling asleep.
[0:48:48] BB: That's nice.
[0:48:50] JA: What is the most inspiring location you've traveled to?
[0:48:54] AN: I did get a chance. My fafa has passed away since then. But for his 80th birthday, him and his aunt were the same age, and I got to go to Sweden in the town that my family is from. And they did like a dual 80th birthday family reunion. And the town looks like the coast of Maine but on Sweden. I'm like, "That's probably why I feel so at home on the coast of New England." It's like in my blood.
[0:49:25] BB: What is the last new thing you've learned?
[0:49:27] JA: Oh, jeepers. I guess what I am learning, I'm really, really trying to devote myself to this idea of surrendering. And it's an ongoing process. So I would say currently, today, that's what I was thinking about. So, I will say that.
[0:49:45] JA: If you could go back in time, what advice would you give your younger self?
[0:49:50] AN: You're not broken. Be gentle. We are all perfectly imperfect humans.
[0:49:56] JA: Oh.
[0:49:57] BB: Beautiful.
[0:49:58] JA: Oh my god. That's a perfect answer.
[0:50:00] BB: It really is. I think everybody needs to think about that. And certainly, how that carries down to our kids, too, our students is really, really important. Just like, "You're going to get through this, kids. You're going to be okay. We're imperfect." And to remind ourselves of that, too, is important.
[0:50:17] JA: And gratitude.
[0:50:19] BB: Yeah. Yeah. Ashley, you've shared so much with us today. I have a page full of notes. And we could probably keep talking for a lot longer, but
[0:50:26] AN: I'll have to come back for another time.
[0:50:26] BB: Yeah, round two. But thank you so much for your time today. And yeah.
[0:50:31] JA: Thank you.
[0:50:33] AN: This was so much fun. Yeah.
[0:50:36] BB, JA, AN: Show us your creative guts.
[0:50:42] JA: Another huge thank you to Ashley for joining us on Creative Guts.
[0:50:45] BB: Another one. Another winner.
[0:50:47] JA: I feel like I'm centered now in gratitude. And I just love everything she had to say around like the spirit of sort of what drives her to create. Well, also with very practical advice for prompts and finding ways to make art in the margins.
[0:51:01] BB: Yeah, I think that's one thing that's always been a hang-up for me, and we talked a little bit about this, is when I am making, I feel like I have to be making something substantial. And if it's not bigger than 8 by 10, then it's not substantial enough, or it's maybe just a study or a sketch. But that's not the case. You can create bite-sized artwork. And of course, we know this because Creative Guts does the tiny art exchange, right? And yet, somehow, there's this hang-up that small art isn't precious enough. But it is.
[0:51:31] JA: Yeah, definitely. And I love the systems. The way that she sets up prompts and the way that she sort of systematizes things and play, randomness, all that stuff. It's like right up our alley.
[0:51:41] BB: For sure. The inspiration she gets from Dada and Surrealism, certainly so well embedded into her work. But yet, I'm thinking about the way that she does organize her materials, too. I love learning about that process and how she has bins for all these different types of materials. And then she'll just pull from it.
But then she was also talking about in creating those little tiny pieces when she's waiting in the car to pick up her kid from school. She's got 15 minutes where she can just do a doodle, or she adds on to an existing piece and maybe tears it up and reassembles it, or does something different with it. But she's finding ways to continue to create even in those moments of lull.
[0:52:18] JA: Bite size.
[0:52:18] BB: Yeah. That are so much more meaningful. And that's something that is lost, I think, for a lot of people in our world right now. And certainly, something that I have fallen into myself.
[0:52:28] JA: Me too. Yeah. It's too precious. I'm too precious about it. I just need to play around. That's what she's inspired me to do.
[0:52:35] BB: Yeah. She mentioned also The Artist's Way and The Five Minute Journal, which are also amazing resources that are so open to interpretation. And so I'm excited that she referenced that. She's like my spirit animal, I think. I've got so much inspiration just hearing about her practice that is really inspiring.
[0:52:54] JA: And she's doing good work plugging into the community, too. It's like it's all things. She's checking all the boxes. It's amazing. Thank you, Ashley, for coming on.
[0:53:02] BB: If you would like to learn more about Ashley's work, you can find links to her website and socials in the episode description and on our website, creativegutspodcast.com.
[0:53:12] JA: You can also find us, Creative Guts podcast, on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and Discord. If you're not on social media, but you want to stay in the know about what we're doing, join our newsletter. We're on Substack, and you can find the link to the sign up on our website.
[0:53:25] BB: We are grateful to the support of Kennebunk Savings for being a Creative Guts sponsor this year. If you or someone you know is interested in becoming one of our sponsors, check out our website for more details.
[0:53:36] JA: As always, a big thank you to Rochester Museum of Fine Art for being a friend and supporter of the show.
[0:53:40] BB: If you love listening and you want to support Creative Guts, you can make a tax-deductible donation, leave us a review, interact with our content on social media, purchase some merch, whatever you are able to do, we really appreciate it.
[0:53:53] JA: Thank you for tuning in. We'll be back next Wednesday for another episode of Creative Guts.
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